Amos

Don't be silly sullster, the betterment of mankind was always their motive and it always was out of abundance that the people gave. Even today no tithes are required and the indugences were actually the effective cause for the abundance out of which they gave. Understand here that indulgences work or they would never be part of the holy institution.

They built St.Peter because they needed a ceiling to paint on and if you ever get a painter like that you should do the same. That will be the only way that you can defeat the Church because Michelangelo sure was no accident or freak in nature. We had too many just like him and that is probably why most Americans hate the Church.

I was just in Europe and observed how they rediculed Americans for their treatment of the poor (human right is a big issue there now with the invasion of Muslims).

The creation of anti-biotics was a good idea but it also caused the enemy to diversify and just become a greater problem. It seems that with the increase of medicine and education people get sicker and probably not wiser. Just more confused, maybe, and therefore sicker. Yes, that's it, we are not as much in charge of our destiny as we think we are. We are just filling pot-holes and take life as it comes our way.

Dr Rick

With all my heart, Amie, with all of my heart.

I was once a devout Christian. I wasn't born with disgust for the church in all of its permutations, nor did I just wake-up one morning and decide to walk away from it. Leaving the church was an excruciating process for me as it is for most that do. It was a gradual, and at times painful process coming to grips with the truth. I wanted to believe in a god, in an ultimate goodness, but I found that the more I learned about it, the more transparent was the lie and the hypocrisy that is religion. I really looked at religion, particularly Christianity, and studied it hard, and it became undeniably obvious that it was all a ridiculous hoax. There are no gods, Amie, and there never were.

Learning and accepting the truth and becoming a free-thinker, as tough as it was at the time, has been a life-enriching experience. I'm both free and responsible now, with no imaginary sky-daddy to punish, forgive, and/or save me. I truly appreciate the beauty and wonder of the universe, and yet at the same time I do not dismiss the suffering of humanity in the way a Christian can with a promise of a better afterlife. I am responsible for what I do, and I can't blame a demon or credit an angel for anything.

This is our one life; what a shame to oppress it with the yoke of religion, to be lulled into complacency with the false comfort of a make-believe saviour, or to waste it obeying the whims of decrepid men claiming that they speak for the gods.

There is goodness in everything if you look hard enough, even in the Catholic Church. That does not mean on balance the church is a good thing, however, and an objective look will show you that it is anything but. It's not an easy thing to do, but if you have the courage to face the truth, it can set you free. The religious shackling of humanity has been a terrible tragedy; it's absurd to ask me or others that recognize this basic truth to defend some obscure good that may have come from it.

Look hard at what the Church is, what religion does, and you will see the truth for yourself.

Rick

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Dr Rick ]</p>

thebeave

Wonderful post, Dr. Rick. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

One good thing I can think of that the Catholic Church did fairly recently (1992?) was they forgave and apologized to Galileo for ostrasizing and locking him up because he made some true scientific observations. Surely that must count for something?

The Other Michael

Gemma Therese,

You're the one making the positive statement, so you've got the burden of proof.

My part is to critically evaluate the evidence you put forth to support your statement, to see if it is worthy of acceptance.

It would seem you've got quite a lot of research that needs to be presented so I can determine if what you have asserted has any factual basis.

I'm waiting,
Michael

Amos

Take it as a slap in the face because the fact is that when we become fully one with God, and have the mind of God such as is our mandate, we are the centre of the universe. By this is meant that we are in charge of our own destiny and are no longer moved by egocentric perceptions.

Amos

Your disgust for religion is a direct result of the empty promises made by your church. Your problem was that you called yourself a devout Christian and later had to pray like hell to live up to that commitment while increasingly having to cover for the hypocrite you were.

Catholics never make that commitment and are free to be sinners and will be forgiven a thousand times seven (was it?).

Catholics have comminion with the saints and that is something protestants can never do. The best they can do is have communion with hypocrates as you yourself once were.

The only thing I can say was good for you, Rick, is that your were honest with yourself and somehow found the courage to walk away from your life in bondage. Which is not easy (or every protestant would do it).

No this does not mean that the Catholic church is perfect, but if it was allowed to be Catholic as the Church I once knew it would be better for all of us.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Oh please, Gemma. We just went through this on the other thread. The largest charitable institution in the world historically has been Buddhism. It is far older that any Christian organization, and far more extensive, across a much greater land area, with a larger, wealthier and more advanced human population throughout most of its history. Only in the last 500 years has the Catholic Church even left Europe, and for most of that time Europe was impoverished and backward, thanks in part to the Church and its rapaciousness, close-mindedness, intolerance and hatred. Note that Europe has become wealthier, safer, cleaner, and more progressive as the Church's power has receded.

The Church is an evil institution that is concerned only with its own power. Catholic charities occur because many individual Catholics remain decent and loving people despite the teachings of their Church.

The Church itself, however, is a cold, authoritarian institution, that supports authoritarianism in all its forms all over the world. Prior to WWII it supported Hitler, Franco and Mussolini, and Chiang Kai-shek (to the present day the Church's officials in Taiwan oppose democratization here and support the former ruling party). It supplied a cleric to act as dictator of Slovakia during the war, spirited out Croatian nazis through the Vatican, laundered their money for them, and supplied clerics to run death camps. One might note that the WWII dictators Tiso, Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were all Catholics... In the US the Church agitates against progressive social reforms, and supports conservative candidates -- the very people who will destroy the Church if they ever come to power. Not just evil, but stupid too.

Amie, your comment that most Americans hate the Church is slightly off-base. The Church is despised because so many Americans belong to other Christian organizations that hate it, a very typical example of Christian hate in action. I personally detest the Church, having been raised Catholic, but I detest it for the same reasons I detest any system of authority -- like Communism, Islam, Facism -- that infringes on human freedom and growth. In Taiwan I worked for the democracy movement. Amie, the Church opposed us, and still does. It is a testimony to your own goodness that you have remained a decent human being despite the teachings of the Church.

Vorkosigan

fando

Well, that event is not easy to qualify. The consequences of the apology for the condemnation of Galileo are many and complex. I saw it as the Catholic Church shooting itself in the foot with regards to credibility, authority and relevancy in the modern world. From my perspective, this is a good thing for humanity as it sets the stage for the downfall of Catholicism as we know it. On the other hand, one can say that the trend of apologizing for past misdeeds gives the Church carte blanche for continuing to do wrong. The current hoopla with pedophiles is evidence of this.

openeyes

Amos wrote
If he is implying that Dr. Rick would feel differently had he been raised in the "true" church, I think Amos is off-track.

I was raised Catholic and liked the things Dr. Rick said. It seems that many "free-thinkers" were raised Catholic, perhaps even a higher percentage then would be expected from the general population. Many of us fell away long before the current scandals, and not because of any specific wrong-doing aimed at us personally, but because we realized the whole thing was an elaborate house of cards.

Amie

Hi Vorkosigan

I never said this.