Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mfaber · 05-03-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
Yes, God created Lucifer as his most beautiful highly regarded Angel, and gave the angels freewill, well Lucifer thought he was more powerful than God, and rebelled against him, there was a struggle and Satan and 1/3 of the angels that backed Satan were cast out of heaven.

God hasn't destroyed him yet because he is going to be the scapegoat, and a lesson to everything that embodies God, when he defeats Satan and casts him into the lake of fire.

This show will be grand, and will be a spectacle of God's sovereignity. The righteous and unrighteous will behold this, unfortunately the unbelievers will be cast into the lake with him.

Badfish, you do know that the Christian version of Satan is a complete and total corruption (hence a fabrication) of the Jewish version of Satan? The question here is==> which Satan? You may not know this, but Jews have a radically different view of Satan and regard the Christian one as an outlandish corruption. It is interesting to note that the concept of Satan as God's enemy is strictly an invention of Christians

Especially for the purpose OF DEMONIZING the "enemy" (anyone who refuses to blindly and obediently believe). If one's view is opposed simply "poison the well" by claiming that one's opponent is a "dupe/lackey/fellow-traveler of Satan. This attempt to discredit by claiming that the opponent is evil and hoping that no one bothers to point out that there is no evidence that Satan exists. The worst part of this sort of tactic, is that by literally and figuratively "demonizing" an enemy, one also strips away his/her humanity which makes it all to easy to destroy the "enemy" (heretics, witches, non-Christians, gays, abortion providers, etc.)
He's also handy boogie-man for keeping the troops in line and/or hooking new converts in an "appeal to fear"
An easy, no-fuss-no-muss whipping/boy-excuse for the presence of evil (forget that God actually claimed to have created evil in the Bible==>Isaiah 45:7 KJV I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

None of these fit the original portrait of Satan. In fact the popular image of Satan (the horns, the tail, the witches) did not become locked into Christianity until the 15th Century!!!. There was tremendous squabbling over the splitting of good and evil into two separate entities. Some of the early Christians regarded this as a form of polytheism and rejected it utterly. A good book that explores this subject and show how Christianity corrupted the Judaic image of Satan can be found in the book:

The Origin of Satan, by Elaine Pagels

Quote:

In a concise exploration of the paths leading Christians to follow various extremist Jewish movements and late Roman philosophers into a habit of demonizing all who refute majority opinions, Elaine Pagels details the progress of Christianity from insignificance to persecuted minority to an institution bathed in self-importance, but still steeped in the insecurities of its humble beginnings and bloody past. Understanding the defensiveness that underlies the Christian Church's claims to supremacy among all other faiths, for Pagels, is a way to begin understanding who we mean when we name the Archfiend.

In Judaism, Satan was not the evil, fallen angel, plotting the downfall of humanity and presiding over Hell. What Jews believe about Satan:

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The word satan means challenger. With the leading ha- to make haSatan,it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel whois the embodiment of man's challenges. Satan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic--you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.

The pagan critic Celsus (much hated by Christians who burned his books) frequently ridiculed Christians as hypocrites because he viewed their "deification" of Satan as proof that Christians weren't the monotheists they claimed to be (Satan was just a "lesser" God from the viewpoint of the Jews and Celsus )

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
So here's one back at you: Have you read the Popol Vuh? If not, how can you take an educated stance against the existence of the Mayan gods?

Easy, they haven't stood the test of time, and have not demonstrated Sovereignity by being able to convey the message worldwide.

ROFL!!! You do know, Badfish, that the reason why the Mayan religion hasn't "withstood the tests of time" is because Christians burned their books, massacred and mutilated them by the thousands, and forcibly "converted" those left alive to be their slaves and conquered subjects? One of the ugliest chapters in the history of Christianity is their treatment of Native Americans, justified by Christians because the natives were simply red-skinned heathens (religious bigotry flavored with a dose of racism, which was also justified Biblically)

Short History of the Mayan Codex

Did Christians Destroy Classical Culture and Create a Dark Age?

Conquest of the Americas

Infinity Lover · 05-03-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
I don't have to choose one of them because no one knows the mind of God.

So you either shouldn't make any assertions about God whatsoever (like for instance that what you've read about him in the Bible is true), or concede that not knowing everything doesn't mean you can't at least figure some things out... and not give up so quickly.

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I would have to say that his proclaimation to be a jealous and emotional God, could be evidence that he chose not to foresee based on his seeking love from freewilled creations.

And isn't jealousy a peculiar human flaw to have, for a deity with supreme wisdom?

Badfish · 05-03-2003, 04:25 PM

mfaber, it's 4:20 I will get back with you on that, I will have to analyze what you have posted.

hezekiah jones · 05-03-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Badfish
mfaber, it's 4:20 ...

Time to torch a fat one eh. So that's where you come up with this stuff.

Bree · 05-03-2003, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
Yes, God created Lucifer as his most beautiful highly regarded Angel, and gave the angels freewill, well Lucifer thought he was more powerful than God, and rebelled against him, there was a struggle and Satan and 1/3 of the angels that backed Satan were cast out of heaven.

God hasn't destroyed him yet because he is going to be the scapegoat, and a lesson to everything that embodies God, when he defeats Satan and casts him into the lake of fire.

This show will be grand, and will be a spectacle of God's sovereignity. The righteous and unrighteous will behold this, unfortunately the unbelievers will be cast into the lake with him.

Where, exactly, in the Bible does it say this?

hinduwoman · 05-03-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
I don't have to choose one of them because no one knows the mind of God.

Apparently you know enough to decide that Xianity is the only true religion and all other religions are false.
This is the major contradiction I find again and again amoing the Xian believers.

hezekiah jones · 05-03-2003, 06:14 PM

Dividing away one third of a group of individuals might have meant someone got their head or a leg pulled off. I wonder if there are any headless torso fallen angels, or torsoless heads. Or maybe just a leg and an arm floating around or something. I hope there was, like, 27 of them or whatever.

And what good would it do to throw Satan into a Lake of Fire? That would be like throwing Mark Spitz into a swimming pool.

The Naked Mage · 05-04-2003, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist:

Finally, the popularity of Xtianity has no bearing on the veracity of the religion. American Idol and the Fox News channel are also very popular, and they're both crap, much like Xtianity.

ZING!

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones:

Time to torch a fat one eh. So that's where you come up with this stuff.

"True...true..."

Badfish · 05-04-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Originally posted by Badfish
mfaber, it's 4:20 ...

Time to torch a fat one eh. So that's where you come up with this stuff.

Noooo, I meant it's dinner time, and that was the time I posted.

Badfish · 05-04-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Dividing away one third of a group of individuals might have meant someone got their head or a leg pulled off. I wonder if there are any headless torso fallen angels, or torsoless heads. Or maybe just a leg and an arm floating around or something. I hope there was, like, 27 of them or whatever.

And what good would it do to throw Satan into a Lake of Fire? That would be like throwing Mark Spitz into a swimming pool.

Well I don't believe he has been cast into the lake of fire yet, and if he does roam in and out of it, there is going to come a time where he is bound with no escape to the lake.

mfaber, the Christians burned their books because it was a false religion.

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05-03-2003, 04:25 PM	#33
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	mfaber, it's 4:20 I will get back with you on that, I will have to analyze what you have posted.

05-03-2003, 04:30 PM	#34
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Badfish mfaber, it's 4:20 ... Time to torch a fat one eh. So that's where you come up with this stuff.

05-03-2003, 06:14 PM	#37
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Dividing away one third of a group of individuals might have meant someone got their head or a leg pulled off. I wonder if there are any headless torso fallen angels, or torsoless heads. Or maybe just a leg and an arm floating around or something. I hope there was, like, 27 of them or whatever. And what good would it do to throw Satan into a Lake of Fire? That would be like throwing Mark Spitz into a swimming pool.

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