MikeMcK

Huh?

The tree in the garden was commonly called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", but the Bible doesn't teach that there some magical fruit that supposedly gives you wisdom.

Historically, Christianity teaches that it's called this because this is where, by obeying or defying God's command not to eat, man would be found to be either "good" or "evil".

Where does it say that man didn't know "good" or "evil" or have wisdom or discernment before eating from the tree?

QoS, if Christians are discouraged by God to use wisdom or discernment, then why in the Bible are we constantly commanded us to seek it? Why is it both encouraged and rewarded?

Mike

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by MikeMcK:
<strong>The tree in the garden was commonly called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", but the Bible doesn't teach that there some magical fruit that supposedly gives you wisdom.</strong>

I never said that the bible taught that. My point, which perhaps did not come across clearly, is that the knowledge of good and evil is the beginning of wisdom.

<strong>Historically, Christianity teaches that it's called this because this is where, by obeying or defying God's command not to eat, man would be found to be either "good" or "evil".</strong>

In order to understand the difference between obedience and disobedience, one would have to know the difference between the two. If man didn't even know the difference between the two, how would he know that obedience = good and disobedience = evil?

But I like your answer, because it shows the simplistic black-and-white Christianity that fits the real world about as well as a shirt fits an iceberg. One action determines whether we are good or evil? I would say that we are more than the sum of a single action, and that perhaps when we screw up, we should be given second chances.

But then again, I'm not a christian.

<strong>Where does it say that man didn't know "good" or "evil" or have wisdom or discernment before eating from the tree? </strong>

Where does it say that man knew what good and evil was before he ate the fruit?

If the tree did not bestow the knowledge of Good and Evil, why was it called the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil?

<strong>QoS, if Christians are discouraged by God to use wisdom or discernment, then why in the Bible are we constantly commanded us to seek it? Why is it both encouraged and rewarded?</strong>

You're encouraged to think only up to a certain point, as long as it leads you into the fold. Show me a passage that says you will be rewarded for using discernment even if, by doing so, you become an adherent to another faith. Or an atheist.

Mad Kally

Yeah right!

"Faith cannot move mountains (though generations of children are solemnly told the contrary and believe it). But it is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness. It leads people to believe in whatever it is so strongly that in extreme cases they are prepared to kill and to die for it without the need for further justification."

-Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene (New edition, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989), p. 198.

MikeMcK

You implied that.

</strong>

True. Christianity teaches that God takes this into account.

Christianity teaches that God offers a special dispensation, to borrow a Catholic term, to those who, because of age or mental capacity, are not able to understand the concept of sin and redemption.

<strong> I agree but you and I are looking at this from a human perspective. The truth is, it's not about what you or I think, it's about what God thinks.

He is absolutely holy and absolute holiness requires absolute righteousness on our part. Anything less is sin.

<strong> QoS, if you're not a Christian, maybe it's not such a good idea for you to declare what Christianity does or doesn't teach.

<strong> That's not an answer. You just contradicted what I said.

The mere fact that man was created in the image of God shows that man knew what was right and wrong.

Furthermore, when Eve was tempted, said said, "Wait. Stop. I can't do that because God said not to" so obviously, she knew that to go against God's command was wrong.

<strong> I already explained that.

<strong> Because the Bible teaches that to turn away from God would invite spiritual death. If God is loving, He wouldn't encourage you to do something dangerous.

God gives the freedom not to accept reconciliation, but it would be foolish for Him to encourage you not to accept it.

Mike

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: MikeMcK ]</p>

Mad Kally

The Garden of Eden story in a nutshell.

"The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions."

-- Frank Zappa, interview, Playboy, May 2, 1993

ax

so many voices, so many choices, shit, I'm pullin my hair out!!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

ax

so many voices arrrghhhh!!! so confussed!!!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Mad Kally

ax,
It's really quite simple. God is the only childhood myth carried over into adulthood.

ax

what about all those poor people who died for christ all those years!!! for what? maybe people need god so they can find their place in life?.
-fuck I've been so blind!!! <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Queen of Swords

<strong>You implied that.</strong>

Well, if the bible teaches that that fruit gave us the knowledge of good and evil, and if this knowledge is the beginning of wisdom, then it would be accurate to say that the fruit gave us wisdom, though perhaps not directly.

<strong>Christianity teaches that God offers a special dispensation, to borrow a Catholic term, to those who, because of age or mental capacity, are not able to understand the concept of sin and redemption.</strong>

Can you provide bibilical justification for this?

<strong>I agree but you and I are looking at this from a human perspective.</strong>

No other perspective has been demonstrated to exist.

No other perspective matters to me. I am human and I will always be human. I do not intend to try to force myself to bow to some other, alien viewpoint.

<strong>The truth is, it's not about what you or I think, it's about what God thinks.</strong>

Assuming that your god is always right, and even if you proved that this god existed, I would not believe that it was always correct.

<strong>He is absolutely holy and absolute holiness requires absolute righteousness on our part. Anything less is sin. </strong>

In other words, he's a perfectionist who cannot tolerate anything less and therefore punishes it? This is not a creature with whom I wish to spend ten minutes, much less eternity. I could marry a neurotic abuser and achieve much the same effect here on earth.

<strong>QoS, if you're not a Christian, maybe it's not such a good idea for you to declare what Christianity does or doesn't teach. </strong>

Oh, you must have missed the part where I stated that I used to be a christian. I know very well what fundamentalist christianity teaches. It is not necessary to currently be a christian in order to comment on what it teaches.

<strong>That's not an answer. </strong>

Exactly. It's a question.

<strong>You just contradicted what I said.</strong>

I also pointed out the lack of bibilical justification for the idea that man had the knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit.

<strong>The mere fact that man was created in the image of God shows that man knew what was right and wrong.</strong>

Does the mere fact that man was created in the image of God show that man could also have created the universe if he felt like it?

If not, why does the one attribute apply but not the other?

<strong>Furthermore, when Eve was tempted, said said, "Wait. Stop. I can't do that because God said not to" so obviously, she knew that to go against God's command was wrong.</strong>

Not necessarily. She could have been merely parroting what she had heard, "God has said so-and-so". Where in the bible does it say that she realized she was doing something wrong?

If the tree did not bestow the knowledge of Good and Evil, why was it called the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil?

<strong>I already explained that.</strong>

Similarly, did the tree of life determine if people who touched it were alive or not-alive?

<strong>Because the Bible teaches that to turn away from God would invite spiritual death. </strong>

Please point out testable, observable differences between spiritual life and spiritual death. Why is spiritual death a bad thing?

<strong>If God is loving, He wouldn't encourage you to do something dangerous.</strong>

If God is truly loving, he would provide proof that what you were doing was dangerous. He wouldn't kill you for one mistake, either.

<strong>God gives the freedom not to accept reconciliation,</strong>

Actually, he doesn't. He threatens to torture you for all eternity if you don't accept it. That's hardlly "freedom".

<strong>but it would be foolish for Him to encourage you not to accept it.</strong>

Actually, it wouldn't. What kind of people does he want in heaven? The kind who don't take that final step of thought, the kind who will do whatever he says, up to and including killing their own children (Genesis 22). That doesn't describe any atheists I know, and it certainly doesn't describe me.