Mageth

Hey there Palad!

She got that the same way she got that when I said my kid would know better than to talk to me that way meant that I am not a loving parent.

Who's "she"? And you are jumping to the conclusion that I think you aren't a loving parent out of "I'd prefer to bring up my children in a loving way so that they wouldn't want to curse me, though. " I have no idea what kind of parent you are, nor how much you love your children. That statement was simply stating my preferred way of bringing up a child. And it doesn't involve inspiring fear in my child.

Bottom line: Chickie seems to want a fight! Okay Mageth babes, here's the deal...the vanilla post I made is in response to criticism at another forum about my being too blunt, but apparently this doesn't apply now, so here we go..

Oh, you think I'm a she. Sorry, I'm a he. Sorry to disappoint the audience who were no doubt hoping for a cat fight.

Are you waiting for a Christian to agree with your idea that obedience to God's law is some sort of right-wing subservient slap in your face?

No. I'm just looking for honest answers, and perhaps hoping to inspire some people to think about the religion they follow.

Well, honey--you should have brought a lunch I'm thinking...

I'll eat later.

I do care how you raise your children, as I care about all children, and if you can read all sorts of slurs against yourself in such an innocuous post as Palad's, then may I suggest you quit reading these...

I've read slurs like that about me (as an unbeliever) in the Bible. I've had those bible verses quoted to me here on this board. I've seen many theists here make exactly that kind of charge against atheists - that we are, by definition, immoral. I'm sick and tired of hearing that shit, and whether PaladInChrist meant the statement that way or not, the statement "YOU do what YOU want to do, and that is what is important to YOU" implies that I live a life outside God's will, a life of the "flesh", as the bible describes it, and therefore by definition an immoral life.

I'll quote the scriptures that describes what the Bible thinks people that don't believe live like, if you wish, but perhaps you already know them.

What's silly is that you, PaladInChrist, and all other theists also "do what YOU want to do, and that is what is important to YOU."

My answer, no matter what you think of it, is still the same, my friend...the law was the law, and applicable to everyone in equal measure..

Doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that a person should submit to such Law.

BTW, the Law was only applicable to the Hebrews.

There are a myriad of passages supporting Old Testament law, as well as rationales behind why we now follow New Testament law, which I would happily detail for you ad nauseum here, if I thought you actually gave a rat's a**...

Actually, I know them, perhaps as well or better than you. I was a Christian for 45 years before deconverting.

And leave off the "we" bit unless you are ethnically Jewish. The OT laws didn't apply to you unless you were.

which I don't...

Wow, where in the bible did Jesus teach you that attitude? Are you following the Golden Rule here, and want me to also say things like "you don't give a rat's ass"?

Mageth

Yeah, cause someone perfect fufilled them, and died to pay for us not being able to live up to them, since we are fallen creatures.

Umm, the Mosaic Laws only applied to the Hebrews. Who's the "us" you're talking about? My ancestors were building stone circles in Wales at the time. Enjoying pork, too, I suspect. But probably not stoning their rebellious children.

So Jesus died on the cross to fulfill a law that prohibited eating pork and required you to kill rebellious children? To pay for the Jews that slipped and occasionally had a shiver of bacon with their eggs or that failed to stone their sons to death?

Bizarre. Sick, but bizarre. The only thing that's fallen is our IQs from centuries of following such primitive superstitions.

Mageth

Of course He knew what would happen. Part of the point of it was to teach mankind something that had to be learned through experience.

What? That the law couldn't be followed? Then why give the law? To teach them that the law couldn't be followed? Then why give the law?....

Why didn't god just write on the tablets, "I was gonna give you a bunch of ridiculous, arbitrary laws that you couldn't follow anyways just to show you I could make up some laws that you couldn't follow, but instead I'll just tell you to love me and love your neighbor as yourself. That's all. Now go enjoy some bacon." Seems like he'd have saved a lot of grief, and time.

Biff the unclean

Chapter, Verse please where the "voices" told him to do these things.
Okay then I'll just take this as another evasion in a long list of evasions.

I was wondering why you gave yourself the name Paladinchrist? It leads one to expect a knight in shining armor riding out to do battle with the evil infidels. Why not something like EvasionEddy, or SidestepSidTheTapDanceKid, it's long but it's accurate?

Sabine Grant

Bonsoir Mageth..... no I would not kill my child or any human being for that matter for cursing anyone. I cannot even approve of the death penalty. Same way , I will wear pants, have earings, I do not wear a head cover even as I pray and I am far from being a silent woman in any church if I have to deal with any mistreatment of any person. Frankly I tend to " blow a rasberry" to any god who motivates any person to commit any crimes with ill intent.
However I disagree with you that Christ upheld OT laws. I will look up the thread where I debated that very issue and refer you to it so you may read my arguments on that topic.
To stick to what you presented, I consider that the majority of OT laws were projected by human beings who sought to control masses ( remember that the jews lived under a tribal system) and " God" became a handy tool to exercise authority over the 12 tribes of Israel.
Christ consistently rebukes and challenges the " teachers of the Law". His goal was to deprive them of that usurpated authority and restore an authentical image of God. Christ's message is then that " if anyone harms any of those little ones"..... quite a contradiction to an ordinance which commands to harm the little ones.
Even to a skeptic who would concieve that Christ did exist, Christ was a revolutionary man who overturned the application of those laws.

Mageth

Everything except the Law of Love was thrown out, it wasnt pick and choose, as you say.

So you think homosexuality is OK now, I assume. Good for you.

Sabine Grant

MAGETH.... as mentionned in my previous post, you can read my arguments on OT laws/versus Christ on page 6 of " huge flaw in the Bible" on June 7th at 1045 am. When you have time of course....

Mageth

However I disagree with you that Christ upheld OT laws. I will look up the thread where I debated that very issue and refer you to it so you may read my arguments on that topic.
To stick to what you presented, I consider that the majority of OT laws were projected by human beings who sought to control masses ( remember that the jews lived under a tribal system) and " God" became a handy tool to exercise authority over the 12 tribes of Israel.

I agree with that. But Jesus was a Jew, and was allowed in the Temple; thus, he followed the OT Laws (otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed in the Temple).

Christ consistently rebukes and challenges the " teachers of the Law".

I don't recall him rebuking and challenging them for teaching the law - more for their transgressions against the law and the people. If you have a scripture which rebukes them for actually following or properly teaching the law, by all means provide it.

His goal was to deprive them of that usurpated authority and restore an authentical image of God. Christ's message is then that " if anyone harms any of those little ones"..... quite a contradiction to an ordinance which commands to harm the little ones.

Read the Matthew quote below.

I agree that some of the teachings of Christ are preferable to the Law, but Jesus was a Jew, and thus followed the OT laws.

Even to a skeptic who would concieve that Christ did exist, Christ was a revolutionary man who overturned the application of those laws.

This stance is totally puzzling to me in light of Jesus' words in Matt. 5, which your statement seems to directly contradict:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As far as I can tell, heaven and earth haven't passed yet. So no, I don't see how Christ overturned the application of those laws. On the contrary, he teaches that the law is to be followed down to the minutest detail, and later in the chapter he made some of the laws even more strict.

Sabine Grant

Mageth... Christ did not follow the Sabbath as prescribed by the law. He did not uphold the stoning of an adulteress. And he threatens of the worst those who would harm children. He was a jew yes..... but with a challenging vision of God.
I am not sure we can assert that " he was accepted in the Temple". It would have been irrelevent to him whether or not he was " allowed " in the Temple. The man entered the Temple with the mission to clean it up from thousands of years of opression and repression on God's people. At no time could the Pharisees oppose to him. They had to resort to treachery to force the Romans to be involved. They feared Christ.
If Christ was upholding OT laws why he is not following them? The essence of his message deserves to be considered thru how he demonstrates thru his personal example what the message means.

PaladInChrist

Nope, he died for your sins too, and your ancestors. His sacrifice is outside of time. He died once, but His sacrifice exists eternally in a mystical manner.

Maybe when you are all knowing and all powerful, you can think up a better solution. Perhaps there is more to it than you know?