malookiemaloo

Don't know if this should be here or creation v evolution.

I expect this has been discussed many times in the past but I am fairly new to the Sec. Web. As a Christian I believe in God's creative powers. One day there was nothing then God spoke etc etc

I haven't a clue what atheists believe on this.

I have heard on the 'solid state' theory which I think says everything was always there. ie there never was 'beginning' neither is there an end. Is this right?

Please keep answers as simple as possible as I do not come from a science background.

I'm not looking for an argument-just interested.


m

Bialar Crais

Depends on the atheist I'll wager...

I think you are referring to the steady state "theory" which was the counter-hypothesis to the Big Bang theory.

I would belive most scientifically inclined people, wether atheists or not, would go with Big Bang.

Bill Snedden

It's "steady-state" as Bialar mentioned and I think he's also correct in that most denizens of this board would probably assent to the Big Bang as it is the currently accepted theory.

However, I just wanted to point out that the BB itself doesn't dictate a "beginning" in the temporal sense. As time itself came into existence at the BB, there was no "beginning" to the universe as there was no time when the universe did not exist.

In addition, even if we were to grant a "beginning" to the universe (in the temporal sense), the BB only speaks to the event through which the observable universe came into being. It says nothing about any foundational state of being that would have existed "prior" to the BB. As far as I can see, it's not contradictory to the concept of the BB (although it might be to certain specific theories) that there could have been a logically and causally prior, eternally existent state of being.

Theists generally call this state of being "god", however that requires the ascription of personality and consciousness; neither of which seem to be logically necessary or demonstrable (but that's really a different topic).

Regards,

Bill Snedden

eh

The question of a beginning is something that goes a long way back, long before the expanding universe was discovered. In fact, the idea of time being finite or infinite has even driven some people insane, literally. But here are some beliefs you'll find among the people around here. Feel free to add anything if I miss.

The universe has existed forever

This idea may seem to be outdated in light of the big bang theory, but several inflation models allow for such a universe. Most of the universe would be a vacuum, but certain regions will have galaxies and possibly life. Other cyclic models of the universe could also allow for an eternal universe, such as the brane collision.

Time as a dimension

One way to explain the beginning is the use of time as a actual 4th dimension. The big bang would then merely be much like the north pole of the earth. The big crunch would be the equivalent to the south pole. Since I've never heard a thiest argue that a universe finite in size must have been created, a self contained 4D universe needs no creator.

A universe created from nothing

The idea here that the entire universe emerged as a quantum fluctuation in the void. Nothing physical existed prior to the big bang, but the laws of physics clearly did, allowing for such a fluctuation to bring about the universe. This of course deifies any arbitrary laws of physics.

ekorczynski

IMHO, there are severe semantic issues involved in any such attempt at a discussion, such that the only way to even begin an attempt is to start with clear and self-consistent definitions of terms.

Whether one is a theist, atheist, or agnostic/skeptic, if we try to talk about this using the English language, then we must agree upon definitions of at least the following terms:
"God", "universe", "time", "cause", etc.

From my recent posting to the "Big Bang" thread:
_at most_ we can trace evidence back to a "singularity". That is to say, whether there is sufficient evidence to trace universal causality back to a "singularity" or not, we certainly cannot meaninfully discuss anything "prior" to said hypothetical "singularity".

My main point being that since "causality", "before" and similar concepts have meaning only within the concept of "time" as we hold it, and since "time" is considered as only beginning with
"space" in the Big Bang, it is meaningless to discuss a concept of "before" the "Big Bang".

Likewise, it is meaningless to ask "what is outside of the universe," since "universe" is defined as the superset of all matter/energy/time/space/etc.

If someone else has significantly different definitions of "before" "time" and "universe" that solve this semantic absurdity, please share with the rest of us...

As "Eh" so clearly stated in his prior posting:
"A universe created from nothing:
The idea here that the entire universe emerged as a quantum fluctuation in the void. Nothing physical existed prior to the big bang, but the laws of physics clearly did, allowing for such a fluctuation to bring about the universe. This of course deifies any arbitrary laws of physics."

To me this concept is essentially equivalent to "malookieloo" stating that,
"As a Christian I believe in God's creative powers. One day there was nothing then God spoke etc etc"

It's absurd to say "there was nothing, then God spoke". Either there was something capable of speaking, or there was nothing and nothing cannot speak. Either the laws of physics appeared simulataneously with the Big Bang, or if they somehow were functioning prior to the Big Bang then the Big Bang cannot be considered "origin" but just one major event within a series.

If God is the creator, who created God?
If the laws of physics caused the BigBang, then what caused the laws of physics?
If the world rides on the back of a giant cosmic turtle, then what's below the cosmic turtle?

The only answer to any of these questions is,
"It's turtles all the way down!" IMHO, when the only possible answer to a question is an absurd paradox, then this is an indication that the question -- as phrased -- is itself absurd and the only possible resolution is to consciously re-examine terms and re-phrase the question.

Your Transcendent Skeptic friend,
edo

Wyz_sub10

I would change this wording to "some law of physics clearly did". Whatever laws described the quantum fluctuation might not apply to the universe it spawned.

Theophage

One of the first things many theists retort with when I tell them I'm an atheist is "So where did everything come from?"

This question more than any other gets to the heart of theistic belief, in my opinion. To them, God is the ultimate explanation, the final triumph over the horrors of the unknown. Even greater than the knowledge that the believer will someday get a happy afterlife, is the the comfort of knowing that even when this present life seems to make absolutely no sense, everything is really going according to plan and everything will be OK.

But taking ignorance and slapping a God label on it doesn't turn it into knowledge.

At one point in time, everything was attributed to supernatural causes: wind, rain, lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, disease, etc. Imagine where we would be if "Goddidit" was an acceptible explanation for any of it?

Nowadays, we view the belief that lightning is sent as punishment by the gods as quaint and ignorant. Yet the same "Goddidt" explanation is somehow the pinnacle of theistic philosophy when applied to the origin of life and the universe? I think not...

The hard truth is that magical appeals to the power of *poof!* never were an explanation for anything, nor will they ever be. They are easy substitutes for lazy minds.

No it may well be that humans will never know the answers to such big questions as "Where did everything come from?" But at least for me, an answer of "I don't know" is infinitely more honest, preferable, and even useful than "Goddidit".

Yeah, I know...that came off rather preachy. I guess I'm just in that sort of mood tonight :^)

sakrilege

If there was nothing how did god come to exist?

eh

Magic did it. No more questions, please.

Asha'man

Everythng came from the same place God did.