Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wildernesse · 01-29-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VonEvilstein
OK, I didn't have much time when writing that last utterance.

Of course there are cases where ending the suffering (as humanely as possible) is best, or cases where treatment may do more harm than good. But I belive the topic here, is parents who refuse to allow medical assitance purely on religious grounds. They are scum and deserve to die.

What if I believe that life is something precious, fleeting but precious, and that my child shouldn't have to remain on life support with no chance of survival without it? My religious belief means no long-term artificial life support--therefore unplugging my child is a decision made purely on religious grounds. Is it invalid because of the grounds I stand on (religion) to make the final (socially acceptable) decision?

As for being scum and deserving to die--are you suggesting that people deserve death for their religious beliefs? How kind of you. It's so much easier to exterminate people who are different from you than to work with them to a mutual understanding and goal.

--tibac

Mediancat · 01-29-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
Depends on what medical aid is--is it resuscitating a preemie under 1 lb whose organs have not developed fully and will never develop? That's a dying child--a child on the very cusp of viability, and yet I support the parents' rights to choose whether or not they want that baby to have invasive medical attention. Pain and separation in an entirely new environment is all you know of what you can understand for the few short weeks you suffer and live?

Respirators are medical aids for dying people and feeding tubes--yet often parents of children and guardians of other people make the decision to refuse medical aid for those dying people dependent on such.

Very little is black and white on this earth. I refuse to condemn all parents refusing medical treatment for their children. I think it is often irresponsible and negligent--both to their children and society in general, however, there are situations where I can accept their decisions.

--tibac

This is a bit of an apples-and-oranges scenario, I think; if the humane thing is to end someone's suffering, or to not condemn them to a life of suffering, that's one thing, and not a decision I would condemn parents for making.

However, those aren't the beliefs under question here, in the broadest sense; those beliefs are that if a child gets sick, and ordinary medical treatment would save their lives and allow them to live without great pain, then a parent refusing that child medical treatment is committing an evil act. They are not acting to reduce their child's suffering; they are letting their children die so that God won't be angry at them. And that is murder, and very much worthy of condemnation.

Rob aka Mediancat

wildernesse · 01-29-2003, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mediancat
This is a bit of an apples-and-oranges scenario, I think; if the humane thing is to end someone's suffering, or to not condemn them to a life of suffering, that's one thing, and not a decision I would condemn parents for making.

However, those aren't the beliefs under question here, in the broadest sense; those beliefs are that if a child gets sick, and ordinary medical treatment would save their lives and allow them to live without great pain, then a parent refusing that child medical treatment is committing an evil act. They are not acting to reduce their child's suffering; they are letting their children die so that God won't be angry at them. And that is murder, and very much worthy of condemnation.

Rob aka Mediancat

I agree, Rob, that making decisions regarding life support for a child who will not recover and basic medical attention for a child with every chance of surviving are two different things.

My post was in response to VonEvilstein's post that a parent who refuses medical treatment that leads to a child's death is a murderer. That is too broad of a brush for my tastes, and I was giving examples of when a spade isn't a spade--to refer to his earlier post again.

I have no problem prosecuting the people in the OP for negligence, child endangerment, and manslaughter, etc. Their actions resulted in the untimely death of a person, and those actions were purposeful. That is a crime whether involving religious reasons or not.

Refusing medical treatment for children is not a crime automatically, and to say so is being short-sighted.

--tibac

Mediancat · 01-29-2003, 08:25 AM

Wildernesse:

Just to clarify, I didn't think you were the one who set up the apples and oranges, and I apologize if it came across that way.

Rob aka Mediancat

ybnormal · 01-29-2003, 08:27 AM

It's so much easier to exterminate people who are different from you than to work with them to a mutual understanding and goal.

Thanks for the most accurate xian mission statement I've seen lately.

wildernesse · 01-29-2003, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ybnormal
It's so much easier to exterminate people who are different from you than to work with them to a mutual understanding and goal.

Thanks for the most accurate xian mission statement I've seen lately.

Thanks for doing your part in working together with Christians to a mutual understanding and goal. You're right, Christians are evil and wish to exterminate you. I even have it written down in my date book, right after "Treat my neighbor with love, as I would treat myself."

I'm sorry that this is dragging off-topic. Since as a Christian, I would choose the easy way out and just work towards all atheists' extermination and utter destruction, I don't think that my comments will be constructive any longer. I'm off to the gun shows.

--tibac

Please be advised that this post is dripping with sarcasm. I wouldn't want you nice non-believers to get sarcasm juice on your pretty clothes.

ybnormal · 01-29-2003, 10:20 AM

edit repost...

So, you don't deny that it IS an accurate mission statement.

Look, friend, one of the meanings of the word exterminate is "to eliminate".

Do you deny that christianity and xians in general have a desire to "eliminate" nonbelievers thru conversion?

Please tell us exactly how there can be any mutual understanding when the main xian goal is simply to eliminate the folks who you insist should be understanding of that goal to eliminate them. DUH!

And I can be on kinda topic... no one has the right to prey about me, no right to prey for me, and certainly no right to prey on me.

RufusAtticus · 01-29-2003, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ybnormal
It's so much easier to exterminate people who are different from you than to work with them to a mutual understanding and goal.

Thanks for the most accurate xian mission statement I've seen lately.

The irony is that this "xian" mission statement is wildernesse's codification of an atheist's viewpoint. The way this thread is panning out it appears to be a clear mission statment for freethinkers. (And we wonder why different religions can't get along.) If you are going to complain about the intolerance of others, make sure to get your own house in order.

Bree · 01-29-2003, 11:08 AM

It is extremely difficult to be completely Christian-neutral when Christians treat you like crap (not all Christians, of course, but the great majority). It's hard to get away from the "Christians do not respect me or my viewpoints" mindset if you've been in that mindset all your life.

RufusAtticus · 01-29-2003, 11:20 AM

It is extremely difficult to be completely Atheist-neutral when Atheists treat you like crap (not all Atheists, of course, but the great majority). It's hard to get away from the "Atheists do not respect me or my viewpoints" mindset if you've been in that mindset all your life.

01-29-2003, 11:20 AM	#30
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Overcoming our prejudices is what rational people are supposed to do. It is extremely difficult to be completely Atheist-neutral when Atheists treat you like crap (not all Atheists, of course, but the great majority). It's hard to get away from the "Atheists do not respect me or my viewpoints" mindset if you've been in that mindset all your life.

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01-29-2003, 08:25 AM	#24
Mediancat Contributor Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Baltimore County, MD Posts: 19,644	Wildernesse: Just to clarify, I didn't think you were the one who set up the apples and oranges, and I apologize if it came across that way. Rob aka Mediancat

01-29-2003, 08:27 AM	#25
ybnormal Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 430	It's so much easier to exterminate people who are different from you than to work with them to a mutual understanding and goal. Thanks for the most accurate xian mission statement I've seen lately.

01-29-2003, 10:20 AM	#27
ybnormal Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 430	edit repost... So, you don't deny that it IS an accurate mission statement. Look, friend, one of the meanings of the word exterminate is "to eliminate". Do you deny that christianity and xians in general have a desire to "eliminate" nonbelievers thru conversion? Please tell us exactly how there can be any mutual understanding when the main xian goal is simply to eliminate the folks who you insist should be understanding of that goal to eliminate them. DUH! And I can be on kinda topic... no one has the right to prey about me, no right to prey for me, and certainly no right to prey on me.

01-29-2003, 11:08 AM	#29
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	It is extremely difficult to be completely Christian-neutral when Christians treat you like crap (not all Christians, of course, but the great majority). It's hard to get away from the "Christians do not respect me or my viewpoints" mindset if you've been in that mindset all your life.

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