spazz

I recently had a discussion with my older brother on the existence of God. I asked him for evidence and logical reasoning into his beliefs but, he stated that logic was a notion created by humans.

He said that I rely too much on human thinking, putting my ideas into words and using language to explain my ideas while, he thinks that there are some things that exist beyond the realm of human thought. Also, he said "show me the evidence" depends far too greatly on the the human perception of evidence.

I asked him if he was denying reality totally at and stopping at God which he replied yes and stated that God doestn exist in our "designated reality". He says God is outside the concept of thought created by man. He stated that i would have to alter my state of mind to see where he was coming from.

Since I am fairly new to this subject (existence of God and the like) I was wondering your thoughts on this and, if this idea has been expressed by others if you could point me to some books and articles because most of you seem well read.

Herbert Von Karajan

Spaz, this sounds like a typical Christian argument. Or not. Ask these questions:

- If God cannot be defined in this reality, do we need to worship or even believe in this God for that matter?

- "Alter my state of mind". This is a bit funny. If God is outside the concept of Man's perceptions, isn't it no matter how you adjust your thinking, it is futile?

Ask and come back when you got the answers...

beastmaster

Well he's half right.

Logic is a human construct.

Language is a human construct.

But . . .

God is *also* a human construct.

Thinking outside language or logic doesn't cause spoons to bend or UFOs to land or Santa Claus to exist.

He makes a hop, skip, and a leap into the world of the supernatural without any justification whatsoever. He sprinkles some fairy dust in the air about the limits of logic and language, and suddenly God appears

I happen to think it is Xns who are most limited by logic and language. Witness the "first cause" and Intelligent Design arguments, which are nothing but bad wordplay and reductionist thinking.

Slavik91

Lets take this one step more.

What if us, and the world around us was just a human construct? What if everything we see and everything we do is just some dream?

We are limited by how we percive the world around us. All that we "see" must be interpreted by our brain. Everything you have seen, everything you have done, everything that has ever happened to you could have just been misinterpreted or made up by our minds.

But, we are so woven into this world, this perception, that we cannot escape it. It has become part of us.

This is why logic is so important to humans. It is the only tool that we can truly control. A constant in a stream of variables.



I hope I made some sence, but sometimes my mind wanders onto a train of thought traveling through a wormhole.

Biff the unclean

I find it interesting that Theists can concoct so many cock & bull stories to explain why you don't "see" God and never once realize that these same excuses mean that they can't either.

spazz

Well the thing is he says(form what i remeber I have not talked to him since) that the arguements i used do not apply becasue they do not originate beyond the human perspective. I do not quite understand what he means here could somone familiar with this type of thinking further elaborate?

Also I do not think he is a christian since he says he is against organized religion and said the bible was probably not divinely inspired.

Biff the unclean

The big question isn't what religion he is but what species he belongs to. If humans can't get a handle on this god thing because they are limited by the fact of being human maybe you brother has converted to dog or sea otter.
Your folks will get sore if he isn't house broken.

spazz

Well he said he doesnt need a proof or theorem to state how he believes towards God. He said he does not need someone or something to tell him what he sees and believes. He stated that if he is being deceived he believes in this deception but, then he states that I shouldnt question his deception without first taking into account my own deception.

Is there a way around this? The way it seems is if i cannot prove that I am not deceiving myself i cannot prove that he is not deceiving himself.

Jobar

Hi spazz, and welcome to Internet Infidels.

Your bro is claiming that God transcends all our human attempts to understand Him. This cuts both ways- if we can't disprove God using reason, we can't prove him either. So all the human tales about God, the entire Bible in other words, is at best unreasonable and at worst nothing but lies.

While some Christian mystics may try to use this transcendentalist argument, no mainstream church does. Because it means that words, which are based on rationality, are useless to describe God.

beyelzu

spazz, welcome the infidels



well, if he is that resistant to logic, there might not be any good argument to use against him. however, you might consider pointing out that human intellect is our only tool to understand the world. and it appears to be really useful. and that if our puny minds can conceive of the problems inherent in the existance of god, then how hard can the problem really be.

you might also tell him that you have decided to worship an invisible pink unicorn that lives out behind your house. when he says that you are being crazy point out that you have as much proof for an invisible pink unicorn as he does for this invisible, incomprehensible god.