Corgan Sow

What I observed from a few months being on theistic arguments is that some freethinkers tend to dispute God by choosing just Christianity to bash, and other common facts of theism. What I mean is, they usually tend to stereotype Christianity to all religions. I think this trend is immature, or rather childish, because they will usually suffer if they lacked knowledge on other working religions like Hinduism, Zen Buddhism, pagan religions and etc.

It is safe if an ex-Christian assumes the agnosticism and finds wisdom in other religions, just like I do now. However, I find it a bit too tad foolish for "angsty atheist" to move from Christianity straight to atheism.

Thor Q. Mada

Corgan,

I don't agree. While I admit that Budhism and some others have good points (but these are usually points in respect of the way of thinking or the way of life), they have all one big problem.
They distract us from the real problems of this earth and how to solve them other than by useless praying or meditating to some imaginary deity.
They are all man-made, and therefore subject to manipulation by the professionals of the religion.
All of them also have the "no-reply-nobody home at the other side to hear your prayers" in common.
All of them are dogmatic in one way or another without a rational explanation for the dogma's who came to us from times where live was different.
Any religion is a waste of time, resources and energy and is therefore environmentally unfriendly. (the last phrase is a joke).

tronvillain

Having escaped the clutches of one religion, they are obviously somewhat wary of the claims of other religions, justifiably as it turns out. One can find some value in virtually any religion, but that does not mean accepting the garbage which accompanies that value.

Synaesthesia

Corgan,

I moved very quickly from dedicated Catholic to hard atheist. My agnosticism lasted for about an hour.

Now I would certainly agree that some atheists unjustly generalize about the effects religion has on society based upon their experience with christianity where they live.

I was very serious about my religion, and I did not make the transition to atheism lightly at all.
I have apologetical parents. The usual arguments against christianity in general and catholicism in particular did not sway me.

My choice was not based upon the folly of the popes, the fallibility or morality of the bible or upon the historical reality of Jesus. It was based around what I understood of knowledge.

The fundamental questions about parsimony, truth-preference and evidence that I grappled with provided me with very powerful tools of thought. The flaws that I found in Catholicism were anything but superficial. They struck to the heart of not only that religion, but all faith. I have yet to find a mystical doctrine of any sort that does not fall prey to the philosophical errors which convinced me that God is the product of human minds.

By the way, please don't judge "angsty" atheists too harshly. I know very well the existential uncertainty that many of them face. There is little way to be prepared for something like that, should we blame those who aren't?

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Synaesthesia ]</p>

Corgan Sow

Please don't get me wrong. It's just these "angsty" atheists will get blundered when going debating against theists, like paganists, militant agnostics, Hindus and non-Christians. I mean, again, I met a couple of atheists who thinks all religions supports creationism while there are religions like Hinduism which has doctrines supporting Evolution. I mean, gnorance cn really bring a hell of embarassment to the name, "atheists".

Psycho Economist

Debates over religion, doctrine, et c., for athiests aren't about trying to convince believers that their deity doesn't exist. (They're put in those terms to have maximum effectiveness, a sort of door in the face approach.) It's about impressing upon people that we have a legitimate perspective whether they chose to take it up or not and that we ought to have the right to exist.

Also, should we one day need to defend our existance to theistic religious minorities (instead of banding together with them against the threat of theocracy), having experiemnted with a particular set of religous practices won't help in a debate nearly as well as being familiar with their beliefs and history in a scholarly sense. The two are totally seprate.

What's more, speaking from personal experience, my atheism is a direct result of the overwhelming sense that I had no choices except fundamentalist Christianity and atheism... but my problem with fundamentalist Christianity is the same problem I have with all religions: "on what basis do you claim that your beliefs are objectively true?"

ManM

Corgan Sow,
Your stock Christian believes his particular conception of God is far superior to all other conceptions. When that God fails, all other Gods fail by default.

Tom Sawyer

I think that a big part of it is that most of us don't have any experiences with any religions other than Christianity. It's the dominant religion where most of us are from most of us have probably only known a few people from any other religion. That being the case, when we talk about religion, we're usually referring to Christianity, since that's what we have experience with.

I personally know very little about Hinduism, Buddhism or any other of the world's religions, wither major or minor. Regardless of my lack of knowledge about the details of them, what I do know is that they all hold to the existence of some kind of supernatural force for which they have no evidence. That is why I lump them all together and I feel justified in doing so without looking into the specifics of what they're each about.

I'm sure that a follower of any of these religions could find wisdom from it's practice, just like there's a lot of wisdom that comes from Christianity. That doesn't mean that the belief system behind them has any more merit than the Christian belief system does and going from one fairy tale to another fairy tale doesn't answer the questions that make people turn to atheism.

Jobar

Corgan, I call myself an atheist/pantheist. Look back a few pages for some of the threads on pantheism.

Even the ones of us who have not extensively investigated religions with an impersonal god-concept are well aware that they are integral with the universe of observation. Star-stuff we are; to star-stuff we return. Perhaps some of us do not consider this deeply enough- the philosophical consequences are vast, and awesome, and frightening when first realized.

Many- most- of the atheists here are either lifelong skeptics or escapees from various forms of Christianity. So it should be no surprise to anyone that Christianity is the religion most discussed here. Also, the fact that we have Christians like ManM and SOMMS who continually try to reassert the same tired old arguments over and over means that we have far less discussion of the god-concepts of other religions.

If you feel that your concept of god is a viable one, please feel free to try to talk about it. (I personally feel that if there is any meaning to the word god at all, it is a synonym for 'universe'. Beyond all opposites, beyond all language, beyond all thought- like the Brahman of Hinduism or the suchness of Buddhism, finally it is unspeakable. But the attempt to do so may advance our understanding of the universe, so I still try!)

southernhybrid

I totally disagree with this statement. My own search for god included a detailed study over the course of about 8 or 9 years. Although originally a conservative Xian, I investigated most of the major world relgions before finally coming to the conclusion that there is no god. I found many religions that were more desirable, from my point of view, than Xianity.

Unlike many of my atheist cohorts, I believe that a lot of people do obtain many positives from their religions. These include a network for social suppport, a structure for a system of morality, and being a part of a group that contributes to community charities. Religious beliefs may also bring purpose and a sense of peace to many people. Just because I feel very sure that no gods exist, I try and not judge individuals on the basis of their religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs but rather on how those beliefs influence their everyday life.

I don't see anything wrong with going from Xian to atheist. Being raised a hard core fundy, I just had a much harder time than others in coming to the realization that no gods exist. People reach the same conclusions by following many different paths.