Pyrrho

Another thing that you may wish to do is to ask her under what circumstances she would believe that God was speaking directly to her. Suppose, for instance, she heard a voice, that did not seem to come from anywhere, and the voice said, "I am God." How would she know it was really God, and that she was not crazy? How would she know it was not really the Devil, telling her he was God, in order to fool her into losing her soul? After all, it would be the best trick the Devil could do, to convince someone that he was God, and sucker people to sin while they are convinced that they are doing God's work!

If she said that she would not believe that it was the voice of God if it commanded her to kill, you would want to remind her of the story of Abraham and Isaac, in which Abraham was prepared to kill his son, because God told him to (according to the Bible). So you can't tell whether it is God or the Devil based on whether the voice tells you to do something bad or not (unless, of course, the Bible is false).

And if she cannot know whether God is speaking to her, how could she know, when others claim that God is speaking to them, that God is really speaking to them? And if she cannot know that, then how can she know that God spoke to the people in the Bible, who supposedly claimed that God spoke with them? Wouldn't it be a great trick, if the Devil suckered some people into believing that he was God, and got them to write a book....

leftfist

blondegoddess asked if I had discussed how this made me feel with my girlfriend. I have, on numerous occasions.

I have tried something similar to what Pyrrho is saying. She actually does think God speaks to her. She doesn't hear the voice or anything like that, but she thinks that sometimes when she feels the need to do something - such as speak to someone about God - that God is telling her to do that. I asked how she can tell the difference between messages from God, and her own feelings and desires, if they manifest themselves in the same way. She said that if it is something that would glorify God, it is from God, otherwise, it is not. Clearly there are huge holes in that line of reasoning, but nothing from me would convince her of that.

It seems like every time she and I discuss this issue, I have to reestablish all the points I have previously made. For instance, she always asserts that everything she has prayed for has come true. I then have to point out things I know she has prayed for that I know have not come true. Then after a small debate she admits that in fact some prayers have not come true (although she still insists that they were answered - just that the answer was no). And then the next time we discuss the issue, she will start again saying that all her prayers have come true.

I have actually tried to believe in God for her. I pray, I read the Bible, etc, but I am just more convinced than I ever was that the whole thing is just silliness. She insists that this is just because I am not going into it with an open mind, but I think my mind is as open about this as anyone could reasonably expect. She says you have to come as a child to believe in Jesus - well, the same thing is true of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. I don't understand why she insists on believing something that she admits you have to stop thinking reasonably about to accept. If that's the way you have to come at things, how can you know which ones you are supposed to believe?

Bumble Bee Tuna

there is no hypocrisy in atheistic proelytizing.

I don't care if a theist proselytizes to me on the street or even a friend of mine. I tell them, "No, I'm not interested" and move on. There is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is door-to-door missionarying (People have lives you're disrupting!), or preaching on a corner and not stopping when someone says they aren't interested.

-B

beth

It is wrong if you are trying to pressure someone into adopting your beliefs or making someone feel inferrior for theirs. But there is nothing wrong with sharing one's beliefs. I gladly will share my beliefs with someone if they are willing to discuss.

beth

Left fist, have you told her that you've tried to believe for her, but it didn't work? Have you told her how hurt you are that she will not accept you unless you are a believer? If you have, what is her reaction?

Tenek

Thanks. It's always good to have a current reason to stay blasphemous.

It's funny, maybe six months ago I heard that the vice-principal at my high school had gotten sick with something that sent him to the hospital for about eight operations. Don't remember the details, but my first thought was of smug happiness.

I don't know about a day, but certainly not a week since has gone by without me questioning my humanity, having thought something like that. Now here the only reason to be moral is taking it a step farther. Somehow I'm worried.

Jagged

Um, you wouldn't be human if you DIDN'T have thoughts like that sometimes. Don't be too hard on yourself. Actions are the only things you have full control over and responsibility for. Are you using a voodoo doll to inflict these illnesses on your principal? If not, don't worry.

[/sidetrack] (btw, if this is really bothering you why not start your own thread, it's an interesting topic)

[original issue]

If there's one thing I learned after being a 'born-again' Christian, it is that I will never again try to tell someone else how to live their life or structure their worldview. It is arrogant, it shows no respect for each individual's ability to decide what is best for themselves. And it is ultimately futile (even if it is "successful," it is never real). I deconverted because I was ready to, and I felt it was the next step in my journey thru life. But who the hell am I to know what someone else's journey should entail.

yguy

The difference is that I had no reason to think that what I "hoped" for had happened or will happen. It was not a serious wish that anyone get hurt, but an expression of contempt for what seems to me a manipulative practice.

So while your desire to compare yourself favorably to me is understandable, you'll have to find some other basis on which to do it, I should think.

DamagedGoods

I think that trying to bend someone's belief just so you can get married is a bad idea. It's pretty apparent that her religion is more important to her than you are. If you push her into 'getting de-Jesused' and she regrets it later, you will be hating life.

I vaguely recall that Mark Twain managed to convince his wife to abandon her religion, and regretted having done so later on. Shame on me for not being able to reference a source here; someone please tell me if I'm wrong on that one.

leftfist

blondegoddess -
Yes I have told her those things. She doesn't really have much of a reaction. She is glad I make attempts to believe, but I don't think she thinks I really try, because she believes that "if you seek you will find," and since I have yet to become a Christian, I must not really be seeking it. She sympathizes with me that this whole thing hurts me, but that's not making her budge.

Wow, you say "just so you can get married" like getting married is no big deal or something. Look, we are talking about a girl I have known and loved for years, and she is someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, and that's something she wants too. Yes her religion is more important to her than I am, and that's not something I'm thrilled about, but it's perfectly understandable - I mean, if you accept the premise that there is a loving God who wants to give you eternal life, blablabla, how could that be anything less than the most important thing in your life?

I am aware that even if I can convince her of the truth, it may not be the smoothest transition in the world, but I know that I am willing to give up everything for her, and I know that she would be willing to give up her religion for me - IF she no longer believed it were true.