Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spaz · 03-18-2003, 02:52 PM

if there are things that god can't do, then he's not all-powerful

Queen of Swords · 03-18-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Angels were created to do specific tasks. There are i think 7 ranks of angels, each having a different purpose. The higher the rank, the closer and more important their task is, just like employees for a business. God is the CEO, Founder, Seraphim are the executives and "cabinet", and plain angels are the mail deliverers. Then there are ranks inbetween.

Any biblical evidence for this, or is this from some children's storybook?

They are given Free will though, so they can choose to work for God and enjoy living in Heaven.

If any choose not to work for god, does he send them to hell?

Satan wanted to be God. Satan wasn't content with God having authority over him, so he tricked other angels into following him and they rebelled to become fallen angels.

Where in the bible does it say that Satan tricked other angels? Is it possible that other angels also realized that the god of the old testament was a tyrant not worth serving?

Queen of Swords · 03-18-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
He's punishing you for what you do, not what Adam and Eve did.

Then why would he pronounce a punishment that affects every woman : "in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children"?

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaz
if there are things that god can't do, then he's not all-powerful

God can do anything that doesn't contradict his nature, thats a dumb argument. He can't create a square without 4 sides, because then it wouldn't be a square. He can't create a rock so big that he can't lift it because if he can't lift it, hes not God, and if hes not God, he couldn't have created it in the first place. Not being able to defy your own being through a paradox has nothing to do with omnipotence. God has to obey his divine nature, or he wouldn't be God. Defying his own nature, goes against his divinity.

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by Magus55
He's punishing you for what you do, not what Adam and Eve did.

Then why would he pronounce a punishment that affects every woman : "in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children"?

Because now, no human can live up to God's standards, all women sin against God, therefore the punishment traveled all the way through humanity.

03-18-2003, 03:44 PM

Magus, why didn't your god save the children who were drowning in the septic tank? Why didn't he intervene before they fell into their horrible, watery grave? Does he get a kick out of watching little kids drown?

lpetrich · 03-18-2003, 03:52 PM

Magus55 is using what I call the "god's thin skin" apologetic.

But being thin-skinned is not usually considered moral excellence.

Thin skin also suggests some sort of vulnerability, but an omnipotent being would be invulnerable.

Queen of Swords · 03-18-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Because now, no human can live up to God's standards, all women sin against God, therefore the punishment traveled all the way through humanity.

If the punishment "traveled", then he is punishing people now for what Adam and Eve did, and you just contradicted yourself (no great surprise).

DoubleDutchy · 03-18-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Magus55
Free will allows perfection to make a wrong choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is perfect.
God has free will.
Conclusion ?:

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55

God also isn't bound by Free will. The term isn't applied to him because he can't committ sin. Yes he can do anything thats within his own nature to do, but sin isn't one of them. Free will can't be used to describe God.

Do you mean He has no free will ? That would mean He can't make any choices at all. If you don't mean that, then what do you mean ? IMHO either He has or he has not, I don't see a third possibility.

Debbie T · 03-18-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Free will allows perfection to make a wrong choice. I'm not using perfection in the same terms you are apparently. Adam and Eve were perfect in that they were created how God intended humans to be. No hard work, lived in paradise, no disease, sickness, pain suffering, sadness etc., and they had the free will to make their own choices. Thats perfection of creation. God is the ultimate definition of perfection which is how you are describing it, God CANNOT make a mistake by his own nature of perfection, creation can because they were given the ability to do it, the choice of whether to act on that ability was theirs and theirs alone.

Magnus,

My question was: How do you have a guarantee this won't happen again in heaven? God blew it once so where is the guarantee? Your reply above does not answer this.

My other question that you ignored was: If I make a product and claim it is perfect and something goes wrong with it, is it my fault or the product's fault?

(Lol Rhea for your answer!)

I look forward to your addressing these questions. Thank you. Deb

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03-18-2003, 02:52 PM	#91
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	if there are things that god can't do, then he's not all-powerful

03-18-2003, 03:08 PM	#92
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 Angels were created to do specific tasks. There are i think 7 ranks of angels, each having a different purpose. The higher the rank, the closer and more important their task is, just like employees for a business. God is the CEO, Founder, Seraphim are the executives and "cabinet", and plain angels are the mail deliverers. Then there are ranks inbetween. Any biblical evidence for this, or is this from some children's storybook? They are given Free will though, so they can choose to work for God and enjoy living in Heaven. If any choose not to work for god, does he send them to hell? Satan wanted to be God. Satan wasn't content with God having authority over him, so he tricked other angels into following him and they rebelled to become fallen angels. Where in the bible does it say that Satan tricked other angels? Is it possible that other angels also realized that the god of the old testament was a tyrant not worth serving?

03-18-2003, 03:10 PM	#93
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 He's punishing you for what you do, not what Adam and Eve did. Then why would he pronounce a punishment that affects every woman : "in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children"?

03-18-2003, 03:44 PM	#96
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	Magus, why didn't your god save the children who were drowning in the septic tank? Why didn't he intervene before they fell into their horrible, watery grave? Does he get a kick out of watching little kids drown?

03-18-2003, 03:52 PM	#97
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Magus55 is using what I call the "god's thin skin" apologetic. But being thin-skinned is not usually considered moral excellence. Thin skin also suggests some sort of vulnerability, but an omnipotent being would be invulnerable.

03-18-2003, 03:57 PM	#98
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 Because now, no human can live up to God's standards, all women sin against God, therefore the punishment traveled all the way through humanity. If the punishment "traveled", then he is punishing people now for what Adam and Eve did, and you just contradicted yourself (no great surprise).

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