diana

Fair enough.

Now please produce the scripture that supports your assertion that Paul followed Jesus around at all.

Thanks.

d

Butters

Originally posted by Magus,

Maybe you should read the Bible before you go around preaching it, you don't need to go outside the Bible to know that Paul was not an Apostle.

Carrie

Yo Magus!

Hey it's good that you can admit it if you are mistaken. Humility is a good quality, and Christianity taught you that. I shall try to do the same if I am shown to be in error.

I understand that you believe that God came to earth in the form of a man. "All the fullness of the Deity dwelt in him," etc.

But like the others said, this is what Paul had to say about Jesus, and not what Jesus had to say about himself.

Unlike Christians, we do not take every word of Paul to be the word of God, so quoting scriptures to me doesn't do it for me.

I'm sure Jesus thought he was the Son of God, but he didn't say he was God. Why wouldn't he just say it? "I am God in the form of a man." Jesus did say that people could know God, by looking at him (Jesus). In John 14: 8-14 Jesus says, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father...Don't you believe that I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me? ...It is the Father living IN me, who is doing his work...I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father."

So, since Jesus believed that God was in him, if you looked at him, you would also see God. You would see exactly what God IS LIKE. If you looked at Jesus, you knew God. Jesus believed that he was God's SON. He said he was going to the Father (after he
ascended into heaven). And in heaven, Jesus would do whatever we ask in his name, so the SON could bring glory to the Father. So in heaven, Jesus is still just God's SON, not GOD. So it's not okay to pray to Jesus, because Jesus is just the SON of God.

This whole Trinity idea is very confusing to a lot of people. Why would God have to send himself to earth and then kill himself to save the world? He didn't send himself, he sent his Son Jesus.
God sent a separate being to us. It wasn't God. That's the whole idea - God, like Abraham, was willing to sacrifice his son, and that's supposed to show His love for us. God wasn't sacrificing himself, just like Abraham wasn't the one to get up on the altar to be sacrificed.

I'm sure you'll have some kind of complex explanation for everything, but the point is, I will NEVER understand it, and that's why I don't like being a Christian, because it's hard to believe that which you can't even make sense of. And trust me, I've tried.

luvluv

FWIW, not all Christians believe in the Trinity. I don't.

I think you're right, Carrie. I don't believe that Jesus WAS God, but I believe He has the authority to act in the station of God. Kind of like an adult son who takes over the running of his father's estate. He has the right to rule over his fathers property as if he was his father, but they are not literally the same person. I believe that Jesus does have the OFFICE of God (or that he at least shares it) but I do not believe that Jesus actually was God. I, too, came to this belief from reading the Gospels (mostly the same passages you mentioned). An awfully lot of the behavior of Jesus (praying in the Garden of Gethsemane for instance) just makes absolutely no sense if He actually was God.

Kosh

You're not a True Christian (tm)

What a coincidence. We all became atheists from reading the Gospels!

Magus55

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Some scripture where Jesus says he is God ( note: "I Am" is what God told people he was).

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." [note: He in this line isn't in the original Greek ].

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Phil. 2:5-8 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So Jesus said he was God many times, not just that he was the Son. And Son of God does not mean literal son as we think of children, Jesus is called Son of God because he is God in human form, and humans are God children. But since Jesus was actually God himself, he was the only begotten Son.

Jesus stating his eternal existance.

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."

Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

God the Father isn't a physical being - he is spiritual. So in order for God to spread his word on Earth, he came to earth in the flesh in order to be the perfect, sinless sacrifice to save mankind.

An analogy for explaining the Trinity. Matter has 3 basic forms: Solid, Liquid, Gas - yet they are all Matter correct? You melt ice, you get water, you heat water you get vapor - solid = liquid = gas - all have distinct properties, yet all are matter.

Space - space has height, width, and depth - yet all are space correct?

Time - time is past, present, and future - all distinct parts of time, yet all are time.

Same with God - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - 3 distinct beings, yet all one God.

Carrie

Dammit Magus, I'm gonna stop being nice now, and I won't even feel guilty about it. I thought I already told you, Jesus wants you to quit throwing your pearls to pigs! Jesus H. Fucking Christ, do you know how many times I've heard this same shit over and over and over! (Damn it feels good to finally say cuss words again! You should try it sometime).

And I'm not a freakin' moron Magus! I already KNOW all of this stuff! I've used the whole "water, ice, and steam" example myself to help convert others. I just don't believe in all that anymore. I don't believe the Bible is from God at all.

Magus, at some point I'm going to have to stop debating with you because I have a life to live. And we don't have to defend our beliefs anyway, because we aren't trying to save anyone from hell. But I personally think it's fun to disprove the Bible.

Maybe you also think it's fun to debate with us big dogs, and you like trying to prove us atheists wrong. But I get the impression that you care more about defending yourself and your beliefs than about our salvation.

Magus55

Well if you are gonna say Jesus never called himself God, then you better hope there isn't scripture saying he did - what was the point in bringing that up anyway? Jesus said he was God - yet you say he never did? And you claim you knew all this? Then why bother bringing it up?

If you know about the Bible and what it says, why make a false statement to which you know is true?

And us big dogs? Egotrip ya think? What makes you the big dogs? You're no better than me. Your primary basis of disputing the Bible is because you "know" its a fairy tale. I may not be able to prove without a doubt its right, but by the same token you couldn't prove that its wrong. So we are at a stalemate. Sorry i bothered caring where you'd end up for eternity - how self-centered of me

Jeremy Pallant

By that same standard, y'all can't prove that the Koran is wrong, nor the Bhagavad Gita. You can't prove that the Invisible Pink Unicorn, nor Hubert, the dancing beaver deity, don't exist either.

Futhermore, I really don't think that you do care where we'll "end up for eternity." You have used hell the same way Christians have for a couple of millenia...as a threat. You can't prove that hell exists, and you know it, but you use that concept as you would a sword in your hand. That is, "believe what I tell you or die."

So Christianity and Islam are no different. Furthermore, their histories confirm this.

Of course your logic is ultimately flawed, Magus. You are the one making the positive assertion. Therefore it is upon you that the onus of responsibility falls to prove that your assertions are correct. We as atheists are not logically required to prove that there is no god, or hell, in the same way that an innocent person in a court of law is, theoretically, innocent until proven guilty. It requires evidence to show that someone is guilty, likewise it requires evidence to show that your assertions are correct. Evidence that you have not provided.

MortalWombat

After April 20, no one will. From this week's Onion: