SharonDee

Well, yeah, that's true in its purest sense. (Think newborn babes or other beings with undeveloped societal linguistic minds.) It's rare for most of us, though, not to have been introduced to the god idea at least once in our lives. Depending upon what we're told, we either accept or reject the idea.

The only reason to think about it again is when it comes up again. Like... when you meet a hot member of your preferred gender who happens to be a theist.

Yes, my statement only applies to occasions when one is arguing with you fellers. Try as we might, y'all just won't shut up about it.

seebs

The point being, I thought it was a little silly to talk about "never thinking about why you're an atheist", in that context. Presumably for roughly the same reason you don't believe the stuff you get in spam; no evidence to support it.

seebs

Gemma Therese is, so far as I can tell, unchanging in her belief. I'm not sure that "unchanging" and "consistent" are the same thing. (I say "belief" because I can't untangle it enough to identify distinct beliefs in it.)

On the one hand, "person X believes this, and she's good" is a bad reason to believe something; on the other hand, "person Y believes this, and is bad" is a bad reason to reject something.

A nasty question. Unfortunately, the only way to test this would be for you to convert, and then for us to arrange for her to dump you, and see what happens.

It's very hard to be sure. How do you tell the herd instinct from a persuasive argument?

Yeah. I would say, first off, you might want to get some advice from a Catholic about what Catholic weddings are like, and so on... conveniently, one of the atheists on ChristianForums just started a thread on this, so if you pop over there, and look in "General Apologetics", there's a thread about Catholic weddings started by "Mallory Knox". Read it, it's got some good information you'd want to have before making any decisions about a wedding.

I see your concern; it's really hard sometimes to separate out the arguments from the people making them. The canonical advice at this point is "pray and see if it's answered", but it is only fair to point out that, if you really want to believe, you'll find a way to think your prayer was answered no matter what. (I think this is because it *is* answered, but I admit freely that the outcomes are indistinguishable.)

Also be aware that you're *not* alone in being in a mixed-theism relationship. It can be tough, but it's not impossible to succeed.

philechat

You mean, she would not marry you unless you're Catholic?

AHHHHHH!!!(Cry of agony)

Do you know how many hearts were broken just because of different religious beliefs?

(Okay. Deep breath. Calm down )

You might as well ask her why different religious beliefs would matter in relationships. I had similar experiences (with Jews) and I still think religious exclusion is a sick notion. I think people should understand that different religious beliefs should NOT matter if a person is truely tolerant of other faiths. Try to persuade her that interfaith relationship (and marriage) is possible if her God is not a sick bastard.

(pardon my rambling. It's emotionally disturbing that THIS PROBLEM keeps happening, again and again, on me as well as many fellow infidels)

I don't know what exactly to tell you. I just hope she is open-minded enough when you discuss this issue with her.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

-RRH-

I agree that you should try to pinpoint both what would draw you to theism and what scares you about it.

I was set with advice on how not to become a Catholic, but then I noticed you said:
So, to what form of theism are you drawn? Trying to pin it down will be useful no matter the outcome.

seebs

I can answer the question of why she might not be comfortable marrying a non-Catholic: Within the Catholic belief system, marriage is not a social convenience, it is a *sacrament*. How, exactly, do you get someone who doesn't believe in God to make a committment to God to honor the relationship as defined by the Catholic belief system?

For those who read the "advice for a friend" thread, this is like that question; it's the question of why you might not marry someone whose very concept of marriage is incompatible with what you want from marriage.

Now, to be fair, I don't think there's much similarity between "not Catholic" and "believes that infidelity is harmless"... but nonetheless, it's important to people to have a clear understanding of what relationship they're entering into, and some amount of agreement about it.

I don't think this is entirely a question of whether or not she can "be open-minded". The belief system doesn't say that he's a bad person, or that she shouldn't love him... but it *does* say that marriage is a holy and sanctified relationship, and that does imply some boundaries on who gets a marriage that gets full church recognition.

I believe it's still possible for her to get married, and to get the Church to recognize that she is not, morally speaking, "having sex outside of a legitimate marriage"... but I'm not sure, because Catholic doctrine is complicated.

I don't see this as any worse than a feminist who refuses to marry a man who thinks that it is obvious that the male of the family should be the one holding down a job. Marriage implies a degree of compatibility that can require you to agree on some basic things.

Disclaimer: I may well have every last detail of this wrong. I am not an expert in Catholic doctrine.

john76m

Seebs,

Thanks for the insight. It is such a fine line, I mean, what do I believe and what do I believe because of people around me. One of the reasons I became atheist was the people around me (other skeptics), but also, my experinces with Baptists and religion in general. (Bible-thumpers really irritate me).

I'm confused. Who is Gemma Theresa? (I'm new here).

John Michael

Mad Kally

Could it be you love her so much you're willing to pretend to believe?

phlebas

Interesting.

I don't think that beliefs can be just changed as easily as you can change socks. I could not become a Christian again by simply deciding to be one, any more than I could decide to be gay, blue-eyed, Chinese, or a feline.

You admit that you don't know a lot about Catholicism, but you're worried about losing your atheism to it. (I have not known Catholicism to be that attractive ) But given that admission, I have to wonder if it's really your beliefs that you're worried about (and if so, whether you're being premature).

Maybe what you're experiencing is a desire to go to mass with your lady pal? I've been to many masses at the behest of several girlfriends in the past, so I can understand. And mass can be fun -- unlike Southern Baptist services, a mass is generally free of controversial subjects and can be shockingly Borg-like in it's hive-mind feel. (When they chant the Lord's Prayer, imagine them saying "you will be assimilated, your biological distinctiveness will be added to our own.")

All I can really say is when presented with a new idea, examine it critically to see if it holds up to scrutiny. (Of course, I would say that to anyone about any new ideas that come at any time )

You'll find that the Catholics don't have any secret evidence that the rest of us don't know about. It's still all the Bible and faith and redemption and fear of Hell and all that, but with many more layers (compared to most Protestant religions I know) of ritual.

However, you would not be the first atheist to start believing. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just be honest with yourself and don't pretend to be something you're not for the sake of others, and it'll all work out. If losing one from the total number of atheists in the world is the price for your long-term happiness, I don't think many of us would begrudge you

Good luck with the girlfriend.

Goliath

john76m,

My advice, for what it's worth, is simply to evaluate her god-claims with a critical mind. Ask her for proof of any supernatural claim.

And if she ever tries to coerce you into her religion, dump her on the spot.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Edited to add: Keep in mind, john76m, that this advice is from someone who would rather die than follow the Christian god.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>