brighid

It's not that it suddenly turns from a blob of cells into a human fetus, but that in the third trimester a fetus can be viable outside of the mother. Although if I remember correctly (and hence the ability to get a late-term abortion) that the status of the viability of the child is determined by the woman's doctor because every fetus may not develop at equal rates (such as the case with fetus with neural tube defects, or other defects not compatible with life.)

It is a blob of cells in the stages of the first trimester (where the vast majority of abortions are performed) and evolves into what will eventually (and hopefully) be a fully developed human child.

Brighid

beth

I am pretty sure that Helen was using fundamental as in terms of "underlying". She is right, babies are being conceived/born who are not wanted. Perhaps people should take more responsibility in sex...

Daleth

Oh, absolutely. I hope I didn't imply anything other than the necesity of givin the parents a choice. As my research last night told me, I do not have that choice in this state.

Agreed as well. It did not ruin their lives. It brought a difficult to understand sad situation into their lives for a while. But it takes a lot to ruin a kid's life. They have an easier time letting go of pain than we do, especially very young kids.

Well said. Nothing like that should ever be pressured on people (or unplugging a respirator).

tronvillain

Life began billions of years and extends continuously from then to now, but the life of n individual organism begins at conception. Does that entitle a human organism to protection by the laws of your land at conception? I don't see why it should.

fatherphil

but to me the bigger problem is that we are killing these unwanted chilren in the womb rather than fulfilling our obligation to care for them. that children are concieved in an imperfect world has been a fact since day one and will always be that way. we have just gotten real good at snuffing them out before the act can trouble our conscience.

Daleth

That's really great to hear. I've never come across such a thing. Do you (or anyone), off the top of your head, happen to know any organization that thinks this way or at least a vague idea of what sort of solutions they'd like to see implemented? That they don't take action like this or even seem to welcome talking about it is my biggest beef with the "pro-life" movement as I've always known it.

Daleth

Maybe you can answer the last question I posted, then. How do you suggest we arrange society to care for over half a million additional babies with parents who are unwilling to or incapable of caring for them every year? Keep in mind that a greater percentage of these babies (than of the ones who are alrady born) will have been conceived by parents on drugs, will have HIV, will have severe disabilities. Also keep in mind that a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant and doesn't feel love for the fetus may very well provide very poor prenatal care (drink, smoke, eat poorly, continue drug use).

I hate all of this. I would love to see abortion rates drop to zero. But I think blondegoddess is absolutely right. We have to cure the root of the problem, unintended pregnancies. We will only cause greater harm if we seek to cure the symptom before the disease.

HelenM

I was thinking of centers like the Carefirst Pregnancy Center. There is one of these close to where I live.

As best I know they provide various sorts of help to pregnant women.

Maybe that's not what you thought I meant. It's small-scale, to help individual women - maybe you don't count that as 'improving the environment'.

Anyway, I know some of the people a little who work at Carefirst and they seem very kind and caring.

Helen

HelenM

Fwiw, that's what I meant by my post earlier, which fatherphil said (I think) was taking the qol issue rather than the abortion issue.

Helen

Daleth

Yes, I understand that. I think our positions are very similar on this issue.

I wasn't sure exactly what you did mean. I'd like to see large pro-life organizations take up this issue because it's inextricably linked to their goal and would make their goal far more humane. But any local level organization hoping to reduce or eliminate abortion by working to solve the problems that produce the need for it is great by me. I wish I saw a lot more of that, even on an individual level.