Freethought & Rationalism Archive

peacenik · 03-06-2003, 12:13 PM

I am just curious because like many of you I too am very troubled by the evangelical church with its emphasis on intolerance and ridiculously literal interpretations of the Bible, which belie the main emphasis of Jesus's message. However, I do admire many of the teachings of Jesus, and while I do believe in God or at least some realm such as perhaps the collective unconsious beyond our current comprehension(although I acknowedge myself that I have doubts), I believe that if I didn't I would still admire many of Jesus's teachings such as the Golden Rule, showing compassion for the downtrodden, and admonishing the powerful who abuse their power(i.e. his condemnation of the pharisees and the money changers in the church). I understand that other great persons have taught similar moral beliefs including Buddha, Confuscious, and others, and I admire them as well.

I was just curious what atheists typically thought about Jesus's teachings about how human beings should relate to others, aside from the religious aspects of his teachings. Any thoughts?

Shadowy Man · 03-06-2003, 12:17 PM

How original are the non-religious aspects of Jesus' philosophy? I mean, how much of those ideas can you find in writings from earlier times? I'm curious about this since I don't know the history of philosophy well.

But sure, treating others well, showing compassion, and admonishing the abuse of power are all good things. I doubt many here would disagree with that.

peacenik · 03-06-2003, 12:24 PM

I don't know either. I'm not a philosophy major. I know quite a lot about Jesus's teachings since I am a Christian, and I know a little bit about Buhdism because I had a close friend who is Buhdist. I would guess that much of what Jesus taught have already been taught by someone, but I am not certain about that. After all there is really nothing new under the sun IMO.

Psycho Economist · 03-06-2003, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by peacenik
I don't know either. I'm not a philosophy major. I know quite a lot about Jesus's teachings since I am a Christian, and I know a little bit about Buhdism because I had a close friend who is Buhdist. I would guess that much of what Jesus taught have already been taught by someone, but I am not certain about that. After all there is really nothing new under the sun IMO.

Well, I'm not a big fan of tracts, and this site is one big atheist meta-tract, but I agree with the author that...

Quote:

Where his ethical teachings are attractive, they were not original.
Where his teachings were original, they are repugnant.

What ecumenical Christians like to triumph as the lessons of Christianity were widespread thoughts in Roman Judea by way of Rabbi Hillel and other early rabinic philosophers and through Roman stoicism. Some of those philosophies were old in China when they were first thought up / arrived in the middle east. The oldest written instance of a proverb like the "golden rule" is found in the Analects of Confucious, from about 480 B.C.E. One of Jesus's best-loved quotes even seems to have been plagerized from a popular orrator by one of the gospel's writers.

Jesus's own ideas, such as self-dismemberment to prevent sin, on the other hand, seem crazy by comparison to what's survived and been incorporated into modern practice.

A good book on the subject is Ken's Guide to the Bible by Ken Smith. It is, for its own safety, burried in the humor section. You could also check out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible and its various specialty sections, including one called Good Stuff.

Ensign Steve · 03-06-2003, 01:47 PM

I agree with Psycho Economist. Most of the stuff that Jesus said or did that was good was good before he ever said or did it. I personally try to live my life by "The Golden Rule" but I do so because I want to be a good person, not because I want to be a good Christian, or because Jesus said to.

Jen

christ-on-a-stick · 03-06-2003, 02:36 PM

I'll add my "third" to what Psycho Economist said about Jesus' un-originality (with re: to the "good stuff" that has been attributed to him - I find the existence of a historical Jesus as represented in the Bible highly questionable, but that's another thread - for the sake of THIS discussion I'll base my comments on "Jesus as represented in the NT".)

That being said, take away the "good stuff" and I think that if I were forced to choose from that good ole (tired and false) Trilemma - Lord, Liar or Lunatic - I'd go squarely with "Lunatic".

Literally, perhaps. A lot of his behavior strikes me as schizophrenic.

echidna · 03-07-2003, 12:00 AM

While the Jesus who many humanist Christians embrace today, seems like an all-round nice guy, he did have some pretty weird things to say as well ...

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barr...rfectbible.htm

Quote:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell...And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire..."(Mark 9:43-47).

I'm really not sure how to put a positive spin on this.

Guillaume · 03-07-2003, 07:53 AM

Do I admire the philosophy of Jesus ?

The philosophy of Jesus is the philosophy of a man who sacrified his life for the good of the many.

In short, it is the philosophy of an idiot.

Ensign Steve · 03-07-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell...And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire..."(Mark 9:43-47).

but, but, but ...

Quote:

For whatsoever man [he be] that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; (Lev 21:18-20)

TomboyMom · 03-07-2003, 12:17 PM

I refer you to the section of Bertrand Russell's Why I am Not a Christian regarding the character of Christ. Too long to quote here. Here is a link:
http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

I agree with other posters here:
Jesus' philosophy was both good and original. However, what is good is not original, and what is original is not good.

Rene

03-06-2003, 12:13 PM	#1
peacenik Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 331	Do atheists admire the philosophy of Jesus(aside from the religious aspects)? I am just curious because like many of you I too am very troubled by the evangelical church with its emphasis on intolerance and ridiculously literal interpretations of the Bible, which belie the main emphasis of Jesus's message. However, I do admire many of the teachings of Jesus, and while I do believe in God or at least some realm such as perhaps the collective unconsious beyond our current comprehension(although I acknowedge myself that I have doubts), I believe that if I didn't I would still admire many of Jesus's teachings such as the Golden Rule, showing compassion for the downtrodden, and admonishing the powerful who abuse their power(i.e. his condemnation of the pharisees and the money changers in the church). I understand that other great persons have taught similar moral beliefs including Buddha, Confuscious, and others, and I admire them as well. I was just curious what atheists typically thought about Jesus's teachings about how human beings should relate to others, aside from the religious aspects of his teachings. Any thoughts?

03-07-2003, 12:17 PM	#10
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	Why I am Not a Christian I refer you to the section of Bertrand Russell's Why I am Not a Christian regarding the character of Christ. Too long to quote here. Here is a link: http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html I agree with other posters here: Jesus' philosophy was both good and original. However, what is good is not original, and what is original is not good. Rene

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03-06-2003, 12:17 PM	#2
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	How original are the non-religious aspects of Jesus' philosophy? I mean, how much of those ideas can you find in writings from earlier times? I'm curious about this since I don't know the history of philosophy well. But sure, treating others well, showing compassion, and admonishing the abuse of power are all good things. I doubt many here would disagree with that.

03-06-2003, 12:24 PM	#3
peacenik Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 331	I don't know either. I'm not a philosophy major. I know quite a lot about Jesus's teachings since I am a Christian, and I know a little bit about Buhdism because I had a close friend who is Buhdist. I would guess that much of what Jesus taught have already been taught by someone, but I am not certain about that. After all there is really nothing new under the sun IMO.

03-06-2003, 01:47 PM	#5
Ensign Steve Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Augusta, Georgia, United States Posts: 1,235	I agree with Psycho Economist. Most of the stuff that Jesus said or did that was good was good before he ever said or did it. I personally try to live my life by "The Golden Rule" but I do so because I want to be a good person, not because I want to be a good Christian, or because Jesus said to. Jen

03-06-2003, 02:36 PM	#6
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	I'll add my "third" to what Psycho Economist said about Jesus' un-originality (with re: to the "good stuff" that has been attributed to him - I find the existence of a historical Jesus as represented in the Bible highly questionable, but that's another thread - for the sake of THIS discussion I'll base my comments on "Jesus as represented in the NT".) That being said, take away the "good stuff" and I think that if I were forced to choose from that good ole (tired and false) Trilemma - Lord, Liar or Lunatic - I'd go squarely with "Lunatic". Literally, perhaps. A lot of his behavior strikes me as schizophrenic.

03-07-2003, 07:53 AM	#8
Guillaume Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Canada, Québec Posts: 285	Do I admire the philosophy of Jesus ? The philosophy of Jesus is the philosophy of a man who sacrified his life for the good of the many. In short, it is the philosophy of an idiot.

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