Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John 3 · 10-26-2002, 12:24 PM

The following is just a cut and paste of my post on another forum. I didnt get much constructive feedback and I was hoping for more luck here.
**************************************

I think I may have found a cross-roads between atheists and theists--a future goal that they can both agree on. The following is an idea about the future that may or may not be true, but it is a scientifically coherent idea if you believe in determinism (which I think science implies--this does not negate the effective free-will of an agent). So read on and tell me what you think.

Every system has a goal and to reach that goal there are methodologies. If there are many parties trying to reach that goal, and they are evolving to explore the possibilities, only some of the methodologies, in practice, will lead to the achievement of the final goal. If these parties happen to be clovers growing in the grass, one might not expect these things to be striving toward that ultimate goal. One may think, �oh, its just competing with the grass. Trying to bogart all the light with its petals, and what not�� and think of evolving beings as completely �self-serving� entities, as Darwin would agree. But that�s not the case. Billions of years ago some life-form that constructs chlorophyll some how got inside plants and started a symbiotic relationship that culminated in all the green you see today. Furthermore, clovers release the nitrogen from the soil that other plants and trees breath. So while competition is an inherent aspect if the universe, so cooperation is its answering counterpart. (This is the same symbiosis phenomenon that has been proven to originate the mitochondria (the power house) within all our cells.)

While competition differentiates the entities� methodologies (through natural selection), cooperation uses these differences to more dynamically unify (teamwork) in order to speciate a higher organization of an entity. Contrary to Darwinian evolution, cooperation is indeed a fundamental methodology that may explain how evolution could have actually made beings as complex as us within the lifetime of the universe. I am not saying that IS how WE got here, but that evolution is directional and progressive, and is a possibility. Besides the origin of man, this evidence brings to light serious questions about morality and the goal of the universe in general.

What is most important is that one realizes that cooperation, as an essential methodology of the universe, suggests that there is goal; whatever that may be. In classifying these evolving systems of entities, one could categorize evil as �methodologies that hinder the ultimate goal� and categorize the holy and good as �methodologies that serve the goal.�

After thinking of the world in terms of systems, I see Jesus� words as pure logic. Compassion and cooperation are of the way of the future and anyone who stands in the way of that cause is already dead to the future. Compassion and cooperation are unstoppable and will inevitably prevail in the end. I think Christians can agree with this.

If the universe is deterministic and science can discover its algorithm (primary rule) and its initial conditions (big bang), then by way of computerized physical simulation one essentially has in their hands �The Book of Life.� If we can be described in our entirety as information, (which can be done in discrete systems) then each person has their own number. At each passing moment, that number changes because your physical makeup changes. But if someone were to bring back your exact number, then it would be you in all of your thoughts exactly, body and mind.

If science discovered the algorithm and the initial conditions, one could extrapolate any number from any point at any time in the universe as long as one had an eternity to do the calculations. A quantum computer almost the size of a dieing universe at near 0 Kelvin would do the trick (as could one the size of earth, it would just take longer). Perhaps this is the goal of the universe: To progressively evolve life and intelligence in order to discover its own nature and then judge its past as its very own nature had prophesied. If this is perfection, we would be judged relative to its nature. Therefore, judged on how much you inhibited the achievement of this goal. Then, ideally, this computer would bring us back to life in the sub-universe within the computer for eternal life. Heck, for all we know, this could already be the rerun simulation judging us right now. Either way, it�s a very compelling argument. It is a scientificly sound possibility, perhaps probability, and it works with scripture, as far as I can tell.

So what do you think? Do you think it would it be possible?

galiel · 10-26-2002, 07:43 PM

To quote Marcel Marceau in Silent Movie,

"No."

Brojees · 10-28-2002, 05:55 AM

Concur

Jobar · 10-28-2002, 10:27 AM

John 3:
Every system has a goal

Sorry, but that's just wrong from the start. We can certainly consider the solar system a system- why do you think it has a goal?

Goals, like reasons, are human-created concepts, and looking at the universe to find them is a bit like looking everywhere to find your eyes.

Xixax · 10-28-2002, 11:49 AM

Quote:

It is a scientificly sound possibility, perhaps probability, and it works with scripture, as far as I can tell.

Probability? Ouch.

My answer is also short and sweet: No.

Silent Acorns · 10-28-2002, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John 3:
Every system has a goal ... one could categorize evil as ‘methodologies that hinder the ultimate goal’ and categorize the holy and good as ‘methodologies that serve the goal.’

It looks to me like all you did was take the letter 'd' in 'God' and distort into 'al'.

Quote:

While competition differentiates the entities’ methodologies (through natural selection), cooperation uses these differences to more dynamically unify (teamwork) in order to speciate a higher organization of an entity.

I think it would be more reasonable to say that natural selection has selected 'cooperation' as one tool that species can use to increase their ability to pass on their genes into future generations. There is nothing to suggest that "higher organization" is only possible through cooperation, that "cooperation" is the goal of the universe, or that we are being/will be judged based on how we work towards this goal.

Quote:

After thinking of the world in terms of systems, I see Jesus’ words as pure logic. Compassion and cooperation are ... the way of the future

I might be inclined to agree if the only thing Jesus said was "Compassion and cooperation are the way of the future". Unfortunately, he said a lot more ...

Quote:

Do you think it would it be possible?

I would answer "no" becasue I suspect that most theists would object to changing "god" to "goal" and most atheists would object to the thinly veiled "god" that you call "goal". Nice try though.

Keith Russell · 10-30-2002, 11:44 AM

Greetings:

You assume, John 3, (for no reason that I can discern) that Jesus' teachings are 'moral'.

I disagree...

Keith.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]

John 3 · 10-30-2002, 01:18 PM

Quote:

You assume, John 3, (for no reason that I can discern) that Jesus' teachings are 'moral'.

I disagree... (Russel)

No more moral than the Buddha or other prophets that advocate compasion and justice. But I dont see why I should have a greater imposition towards the fallibility of Jesus over any of these other prophets.

Quote:

John 3:
Every system has a goal
Sorry, but that's just wrong from the start. We can certainly consider the solar system a system- why do you think it has a goal? (Jobar)

What I mean is that every cause has an effect. The effect is the goal of the cause. Because the human brain is a causes a melting pot of other causes, man "chooses" between known causes to obtain the desired effects or goals.

If you would prefer, I could say, "every system has effects." But still the question is, "what are the desired effects of humanity?"

Certain causes have the effect that they give rise to other causes, other times cuases die off. Because causes have definate effects, could we not assume that the causes for which humans live will also have definate effects?

What makes you thing that humanity or the universe wouldnt have and ultimate effect?

10-26-2002, 12:24 PM	#1
John 3 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Va. Posts: 17	Goal: Cross-roads (atheist and theist) The following is just a cut and paste of my post on another forum. I didnt get much constructive feedback and I was hoping for more luck here. ************************************** I think I may have found a cross-roads between atheists and theists--a future goal that they can both agree on. The following is an idea about the future that may or may not be true, but it is a scientifically coherent idea if you believe in determinism (which I think science implies--this does not negate the effective free-will of an agent). So read on and tell me what you think. Every system has a goal and to reach that goal there are methodologies. If there are many parties trying to reach that goal, and they are evolving to explore the possibilities, only some of the methodologies, in practice, will lead to the achievement of the final goal. If these parties happen to be clovers growing in the grass, one might not expect these things to be striving toward that ultimate goal. One may think, �oh, its just competing with the grass. Trying to bogart all the light with its petals, and what not�� and think of evolving beings as completely �self-serving� entities, as Darwin would agree. But that�s not the case. Billions of years ago some life-form that constructs chlorophyll some how got inside plants and started a symbiotic relationship that culminated in all the green you see today. Furthermore, clovers release the nitrogen from the soil that other plants and trees breath. So while competition is an inherent aspect if the universe, so cooperation is its answering counterpart. (This is the same symbiosis phenomenon that has been proven to originate the mitochondria (the power house) within all our cells.) While competition differentiates the entities� methodologies (through natural selection), cooperation uses these differences to more dynamically unify (teamwork) in order to speciate a higher organization of an entity. Contrary to Darwinian evolution, cooperation is indeed a fundamental methodology that may explain how evolution could have actually made beings as complex as us within the lifetime of the universe. I am not saying that IS how WE got here, but that evolution is directional and progressive, and is a possibility. Besides the origin of man, this evidence brings to light serious questions about morality and the goal of the universe in general. What is most important is that one realizes that cooperation, as an essential methodology of the universe, suggests that there is goal; whatever that may be. In classifying these evolving systems of entities, one could categorize evil as �methodologies that hinder the ultimate goal� and categorize the holy and good as �methodologies that serve the goal.� After thinking of the world in terms of systems, I see Jesus� words as pure logic. Compassion and cooperation are of the way of the future and anyone who stands in the way of that cause is already dead to the future. Compassion and cooperation are unstoppable and will inevitably prevail in the end. I think Christians can agree with this. If the universe is deterministic and science can discover its algorithm (primary rule) and its initial conditions (big bang), then by way of computerized physical simulation one essentially has in their hands �The Book of Life.� If we can be described in our entirety as information, (which can be done in discrete systems) then each person has their own number. At each passing moment, that number changes because your physical makeup changes. But if someone were to bring back your exact number, then it would be you in all of your thoughts exactly, body and mind. If science discovered the algorithm and the initial conditions, one could extrapolate any number from any point at any time in the universe as long as one had an eternity to do the calculations. A quantum computer almost the size of a dieing universe at near 0 Kelvin would do the trick (as could one the size of earth, it would just take longer). Perhaps this is the goal of the universe: To progressively evolve life and intelligence in order to discover its own nature and then judge its past as its very own nature had prophesied. If this is perfection, we would be judged relative to its nature. Therefore, judged on how much you inhibited the achievement of this goal. Then, ideally, this computer would bring us back to life in the sub-universe within the computer for eternal life. Heck, for all we know, this could already be the rerun simulation judging us right now. Either way, it�s a very compelling argument. It is a scientificly sound possibility, perhaps probability, and it works with scripture, as far as I can tell. So what do you think? Do you think it would it be possible?

10-30-2002, 11:44 AM	#7
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: You assume, John 3, (for no reason that I can discern) that Jesus' teachings are 'moral'. I disagree... Keith. [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

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10-26-2002, 07:43 PM	#2
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	To quote Marcel Marceau in Silent Movie, "No."

10-28-2002, 05:55 AM	#3
Brojees Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Abroad Posts: 8	Concur

10-28-2002, 10:27 AM	#4
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	John 3: Every system has a goal Sorry, but that's just wrong from the start. We can certainly consider the solar system a system- why do you think it has a goal? Goals, like reasons, are human-created concepts, and looking at the universe to find them is a bit like looking everywhere to find your eyes.

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