ax

Isaac asimov's "in the beggining" states that there is the J document and the P document, J is the genisis before babalyonian captivity and the P is after, according to him, what we have today is the P document (influenced by babalyon), can anyone help me find out if thats true? if it is..well then.

HelenM

Who would know whether it's true or not?

That hypothesis is held by some - who see the Bible as - another ancient writing - no more, no less.

Others believe the Bible is the Word of God.

You kinda have to decide who has the best evidence, I guess...

Go ahead and keep reading about that hypothesis so you fully understand it, if you want to. But realize it's a shot in the dark because we don't have a J, E, D and P. It's guesswork based on the text. Just as if someone analyzed your posts and said "I think these are the work of more than one person" based on some trends and differences they think they've found. Would they be right? Only you would know for sure . It's 'plausible' in general that people change stories over time. Is is plausible that people would feel free to change what is sacred text to them? That seems less likely to me. But - I don't know for sure.

love
Helen

HelenM

If I ever tell you I have an 'inside' track on that one, it's probably because I'm manic

love
Helen

schu

"ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YOU SHALL ASK IN PRAYER, BELIEVING, YOU SHALL RECEIVE." (MATTHEW 21:22) (JC speaking)

I don't see how HelenSL can call herself a xian but doesn't seem to believe what JC says. Isn't JC one third of the trinity? Part of the godhead as the story goes? Do you just pretend in part of the story Helen? It would seem to me a real (TM) xian would believe what JC says above all other passages. Some bibles even print in red those parts that JC is supposed to have said. You pretend to believe other passages about this subject by people other than JC but don't believe what he is reported to have said. Seems passing odd to me.

HelenSL says, "I'll say it again...you either trust God or you don't."

Is JC god? Do you trust what he says? Then you should trust that he means it when he says it is the fault of the believers when their prayers are not answered. Or give up on the whole story as a bad joke on humanity.

HelenM

This is very interesting because, I know I know me better than you do, schu.

And yet you presume to tell me what I should do?

Where on earth did you get such authority?

love
Helen

Queen of Swords

Still waiting...

HelenM

He didn't sound like he'd given up the interaction, as of when he posted on the<a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000769" target="_blank">'disappointed'</a> thread.

Who knows, though. Maybe he changed his mind. Maybe when he read what everyone else said?

*sigh*

love
Helen

Queen of Swords

Gosh, thanks, Helen. I don't frequent the Baptistboard, so I wouldn't have seen these delightful little misrepresentations otherwise...

<strong>I'm trying to talk to "Queen of Swords" in that thread, but I don't think she's really interested in actually discussing the issue.</strong>

I asked Mike for direct quotes from the bible to back up his arguments. I don't think he's interested in actually justifying his assertions. Or maybe the bible just isn't delivering.

<strong>She reminds me of the old Monty Python skit where the guy goes to the "argument clinic" to find someone to argue with but, instead of arguing, they just contradict everything he says until he finally has to explain to them the difference between arguing and merely contradicting.</strong>

He reminds me of G B Mayes (Brent to his friends). When you can't answer the question, criticize the thoughts and opinions (real or imagined) of the other person.

<strong>I'm thinking about breaking it off but that would look like I was running away </strong>

It does indeed look that way. One more notch on my sword-belt.

<strong>and I don't think that would serve the Gospel well at all</strong>

Yes, when people claim to be Christians but are unable to provide bible quotes or answer the question, it probably doesn't serve the Gospel well.

I serve the Gospel medium rare with a squeeze of lemon.

<strong>To be honest with you, I'm not even posting so much for QoS as I am for the lurkers.</strong>

You appear not to be posting at all, actually...

<strong>I'm not really sure what to do. I'm not afraid of a good challenge, but when you're arguing with someone who only argues from a "yes it is/no it isn't" position</strong>

What's the other position? "Maybe"? Well, if both of us said that, there wouldn't be much to discuss, would there?

What is wrong with a "yes, it is/no, it isn't" position, anyway, when you're dealing with facts?

<strong>I know she's not even listening because she's repeated the same question three times, even though I've answered it each time.</strong>

I know he's not even listening because I've asked questions and he hasn't answered them, much less provided bible quotes to back up his assertions.

<strong>I certainly didn't mean to get into the finer points of Genesis 2, especially not with someone who's more interested in getting a chance to say "A-HA!" than they are in actually finding out what the Bible has to say but I'm not really sure what to do now.</strong>

You probably also didn't mean to be caught in the headlights quite so badly (hey, if you can speculate on my motives, I get to do the same).

As for "actually finding out what the bible has to say", further proof that Mike/Smoke_Eater is not listening, because I've told him that I used to be a christian. I know what the bible says. I happen not to have drawn the same conclusions from what it says as he has. He seems unable to grasp the distinction.

<strong>If anyone has any advice, I'd appreciate it and if anyone wants to jump in, who knows, maybe she'll listen to you.</strong>

Oh yeah! Come one, come all. Mike's down for the count - who's next?

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>

MikeMcK

QoS,

I'm not really sure what I hoped to acomplish by coming to a place where everybody's so hostile and angry all the time, but it was a mistake.

Everybody warned me, but I fooloshly thought that we shared some sort of common ground. My fault.

My point wasn't to debate the finer points of scripture with you or to preach or anything like that in the first place, rather just to say that Christianity didn't teach that God "pushed us in the mud", as the topic of this thread indicated, and leave it at that.

I got sidetracked and got so busy trying to make a point that I forgot why I came. Again, my fault.

Whats worse than violating my own philosophy, was that I didn't listen to the very good advice of Jesus when He said, "Don't make yourself sport for non-believers by going where you know they're not wiling to recieve you" (loosely paraphrased) and ended up with a little egg on my face. No hard feelings. It was my fault for not listening.

If somebody doesn't believe in God, fine. That's between him and God and I'm happy to stay out of it unless asked.

I did acknowledge that you claimed to have been a Christian at one point, although still I disagree that historic Christianity teaches what you say it does.

I'll go now and let you guys get on with laughing or making fun of us or whatever.

Mike

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by MikeMcK:
<strong>QoS,

I'm not really sure what I hoped to acomplish by coming to a place where everybody's so hostile and angry all the time</strong>

Generalization and hyperbole. Besides, we're generally respectful to people who are fair and honest, and who don't have a hard time admitting that sometimes, they might not know.

Also, I personally do not like having my motives or thoughts speculated upon. Criticize my statements all you like. But once you stray on to mind-reading territory, you're screwed.

<strong> but it was a mistake.</strong>

No one's forcing you to stay. Run, run.

<strong>Everybody warned me, but I fooloshly thought that we shared some sort of common ground. My fault.</strong>

I forgive you.

But seriously, what precisely was the "common ground" that you thought we shared? I mean, you don't even seem to think I was a "true christian".

<strong>My point wasn't to debate the finer points of scripture with you </strong>

Then why did you start doing it?

Besides, why not debate the finer points of Scripture?

<strong>or to preach or anything like that in the first place, rather just to say that Christianity didn't teach that God "pushed us in the mud", as the topic of this thread indicated, and leave it at that.</strong>

In other words, you wanted to make an unsupported assertion defending your religion on the Secular Web, and you think that's the end of the matter?

Perhaps you've mistaken this for the BaptistBoard.

Let me put it another way. How would you feel if I came into your house and hung up a large poster saying, "Religion is the opiate of the masses", and then asked you to just leave the poster there? To not even discuss it with me?

<strong>I got sidetracked and got so busy trying to make a point that I forgot why I came. Again, my fault.</strong>

Well, you made your point. You think that God didn't push us down into the mud, but you have no Scripture to back that up. All right, adios.

<strong>Whats worse than violating my own philosophy, was that I didn't listen to the very good advice of Jesus when He said, "Don't make yourself sport for non-believers by going where you know they're not wiling to recieve you" (loosely paraphrased) </strong>

"Behold, I give you the authority to trample upon snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." (Jesus of Nazareth; emphasis added--QoS).

But if you're still working on achieving that authority, I can wait.

<strong>and ended up with a little egg on my face. No hard feelings. It was my fault for not listening.</strong>

Thank you. Please do come back if you feel that you would like to continue the discussion, or if you find those bible quotes.

<strong>I did acknowledge that you claimed to have been a Christian at one point, although still I disagree that historic Christianity teaches what you say it does.</strong>

Again, your disagreement is meaningless (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostals, SDAs, etc. would also disagree with me - and you, for that matter) unless you provide specific evidence to show that my interpretation is wrong...

<strong>I'll go now and let you guys get on with laughing or making fun of us or whatever.</strong>

...but you seem to prefer cheap shots.