BadBadBad

I definitely understand the stakes. I've got kids, and I too am under the divorce threat over the same issue. When I look back, this isn't the first time she's used it. There have been several critical issues in our relationship where the stakes were high and emotions were hot. She used the divorce threat to blow me away. This is just not the way to deal with your spouse.

Given the divorce laws, she's saying "do it my way or I'll strip you of your kids, your money, and your future." That steams me just to think about it. I said earlier that if it were her facing those same options, she wouldn't be so quick to banter the divorce threat around. Forget this religion issue. Tomorrow it may be something else. I just don't think that's a workable technique for solving major issues in a relationship. Separate from the crisis of the moment, I suggest that this divorce threat has to be dealt with.

To me, this really cheapens the concept of marriage and family, perhaps even to the point of it being worthless. I think it's worthy to stand up and demand the divorce threat get pulled off the table. I had this conversation with my wife the other day. I told her we didn't get married and have kids just to get divorced midstream. We can only work things out under the certainty of committment, loyalty, and responsibility. Demand may be too combative of an approach, but I think it has to be dealt with.

As for going to church, appeasement is a good thing. You can spread out the conflict and minimize the explosive nature of what's going on now. I don't think you're going to be able to take it for long though. She's going to have to come to terms with your beliefs eventually. It's not the end of the world that she go to church by herself.

Vicar Philip

Hello all.

Well, I couldn't find the times for Sunday School for the church's website on Saturday, so I called the Sunday School director and talked to her. She was so thrilled that we were coming! I didn't have the heart to tell her I thought Gawd and Jebus were make believe. Anyway, she was very nice on the phone.

My wife worked all Saturday night. Sunday morning, I got up, dressed the kids, fed 'em, got myself ready, etc. My wife called from work, said she had to work a couple hours over, and would I be upset if we didn't go?? I said, of course not, are YOU upset? She was OK with it, so we didn't go.

All that fighting and conflict, and we don't even go. Oh well. I was actually looking forward to it. I was reading up all the Dan Barker questions I could find, preparing myself with some key Bible verses. It should be interesting once we finally do go, and I'll be sure and tell y'all what happens!

HelenM

Thanks for the update, x-xian

Vicar Philip

My wife now seems to think that my Atheism is nothing more than a "phase". Well, she's right, I suppose. It's just a "phase" that will last the rest of my life.

"Everyone else thinks so too," she said. Well, that's fine and dandy. If it eases my wife's mind to think it's only a phase, I will let her. I'm still going to pose the same questions I have for all Christians at this new church.

Should be interesting.

HelenM

That seems very wise to me .

take care
Helen

outtawork

x-xian,

Hi, I'm don't post that often but I thought I would reply to your thread becuase I've been in the same boat... my boat thankfully still floats.

I had served as a fill-in minister and volunteer youth pastor for a couple of years at my church and really was "sold out" to the whole thing. Every summer I would be used at the camp as the finale presentation because I used computers and LCD projectors in my presentations... Well, one year my topic was "given" to me rather than being able to use my own imagination in coming up with a topic...

The lesson was "Jesus outside of the Bible"... well, you can imagine what happened when I started to read the arguments and writtings and comparing the two different arguments together... my faith slowly started to dwindle..

By the time I delievered the lesson I didn't believe any of it.. I felt so hypocritical delievering the lesson, but did it anyway becuase I said I would. After the lesson some kids wanted to be baptised. I felt so bad I just packed up everything and headed back down the mountain..didn't even stay for the baptisms motivated from my presentation.

Well, here is where our lines cross. My wife was very dedicated to her faith. She noticed that I was not as excited about going to church as I used to be...and all along I had been dropping hints and asking questions.

When I told her that I no longer believed the whole thing she was devistated. She had people over to the house to talk to me and we went and talked with people she respected and she thought would be able to set me straight.

When I tried to express my arguments against religion to her she didn't want to hear any of it.. she, like your wife thought that I was going to leave her because I didn't believe anymore. After a couple of weeks I asked her if I could, using the bible, show her some of the difficulties I had with it... I focused on children and how they were treated by "gods people" and god himself in the OT... She wasn't familiar with those passages .

Over the weeks I would come home from work and she would be reading stuff here at the infidels library and studying her bible.. then I got a copy of Barker's book myself. I found out that she read the thing in a single day... then I noticed that she started to underline stuff in the book.

Well, this was the clincher.... she started to faulter in her own faith but held onto it tightly becuase her father is an Elder at the church... then one sunday morning our oldest daughter came out of sunday school class and asked my wife why god kills innocent kids.... My wife looked at me and told me to take my son to the car, two minutes later she followed with my daughter following. We left and haven't been back since. That was over two years ago....

She still believes in a "higher power" but not the christian one and has become a pretty good debater when it comes to her family......

So, fear not.. .things can work out for the best.. just be understanding, go to church if it makes her feel better for now, and use the bible.
But that is just my advice.

Outtawork

Aerion

x-xian,

I'm an atheist and have been for at least the last 25 years. I've been married twice and both times to theist.

Having said that, I feel I have to point out that your marriage may very well be doomed. I know this isn't going to be a popular position, but I feel compelled to say this. Your wife married a Christian. This faith is certainly a very important part of her life and her identity. In her eyes, you have made a very, very big change in a very fundimental way. You truly are not really the same man she married.

I'm not saying the marriage can't work. If your wife is willing to agree to disagree then you two can go on together. But, based on what you've told us so far, I don't think this will be the case. In all fairness, I have to see her point of view.

Best of luck to you man!

Aerion

Ok, I confess I posted my last post before I read all the way through.

It does sound like your wife is coming around to at least accept your beliefs and that is very good news.

I have noted on several occasions you commenting that you were planning to discuss your atheistic beliefs at church. Personally, I think this is rude, antagonistic and probably will embarrass and alienate your wife. If you do go to church, you must try to remain silent about your beliefs. Those who are there are there to worship God and that is THEIR right. Challenging them would IMHO be considered disruptive.

BadBadBad

Outtawork,

I think you have a fascinating story. Several others have posted similar stories about husband and then wife deconversions. I've never believed, and I've just tried to keep that to myself. Recently though I've challenged my wife's beliefs and practices. She too refuses to listen. As I put out the arguments (defensively not offensively), she puts her hands on her ears and goes "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!" I know disturbing pieces get through though.

I asked if she would respond to a voice that spoke out to her from a burning bush and asked her to commit Old Testament type attrocities. For example, fly a plane into a building to kill all the infidels. Would she think it was God or the devil, and how could she tell.

I asked her about all the child abductions and murders earlier this year. God is all knowing, all seeing, omnipresent, all powerful, and oh yes all loving. So there he was wrapping his arms around the beautiful child loving her with his godly love, while the murderer strangled the life out of her. What a blessing it was that some of these children were found unharmed!

I reviewed some of the Old Testament atrocities. I related an in depth story I read of the genocide that went on in Rawanda in recent history over religious intolerance. These were first hand accounts of neighbors rounding up neighbors, gathering them together, and butchering them in front of friends and family. Mothers screaming while their childern were killed. Children screaming while their parents are killed. This was a factual story from first hand witnesses, not just fables from ancient history. The horror of it disturbed me for days and still does.

How can she read the OT stories and dismiss the horror so flippantly? How can she not see the contradiction and hypocrisy of absolute morality and thou shalt not kill? How can she tell if God is good, or God is evil? "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!" But still, I know that as a good person and mother, this has to get through to her.

She's got all these christian books laying around. I wonder what her reaction would be to just see atheist books lying around on the coffee table. It's all here. Right at your fingertips tempting you to open it and see the light. It's one thing to know it's out on the Internet. But now it's on the coffee table right here.

Congratulations on your near simultaneous deconversion.

outtawork

brett,

I can kind of understand her not really being phased by all of the violence in the OT, you just detach yourself from it or force yourself to make up excuses for gods actions.. I don't know what really did it for her. Maybe it was that she loves our kids, and all children so much (we're foster parents) that she could never think of something that they could do that would make her want to throw them into a umm, bedroom on fire forever... there's always going to be something in her that would make her want to forgive her own children....

This was probably one of the final nails in my wife's faith.... I worked with Damon Van Dam for a couple of years and we'd see Danielle at company gatherings from time to time.. Sometimes on the swing next to where my same aged daughter was swinging... He still stops by and says hello once a week or so... he now works next door at one of the qualcomm buildings... he's a good guy.

I'm going for Dim Sum right now.. bye!
Outtawork