Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darth Dane · 06-25-2003, 01:40 AM

The Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Does this mean when we bring out Love in our being that we are touching the kingdom of God?
And that the more we Love the more we touch?
How much can we touch?

We bond with God by choosing Love before we choose anything else.

(1st John 4:7-8. God is Love)

By chossing Love what do we draw closer to?

When I choose Love and see the smiles on others faces, I know I give glory to God(Love)

Given this definition of God, I ask if you have touched the kingdom of God? Have you felt Love?

All you need is Love

Love thy neighbor as you Love yourself

The way you do Love your neighbor IS the way you Love yourself

DD - Love Spliff

Bill Snedden · 06-25-2003, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
And the measurement for the foot came from easily detectable standerds in measuring techniques. It was found as a product of matter.

Are you saying that measurements of length are intrinsic properties of matter?

I don't see how this can be correct. Designations of measurement are more or less arbitrary distinctions. "A foot", for instance, is an ancient measurement the standard for which used to be the king's foot. In fact, most non-metric measurements derive from physical characteristics and were thus non-standard (because everyone's forearm was a different length, different kings would have different size feet, etc).

As Llyricist points out, the standard measurement for "a foot" (or any other length) arose out of intersubjective agreement, not some objective property of matter.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Normal · 06-25-2003, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Llyricist
Well we're in for a pound now to get this thread booted over to moral foundations, so what the heck

In my opinion, the "natural" tendency for humans not to harm eachother, at least within their own basic group, came about as an evolutionary advantage. Of course this came along with another tendency for animosity toward individuals from outside the group. The group in hunter gatherer times was probably no more than a few dozen individuals. But when agriculture and animal husbandry came along (the precursers to "civilization") and people started collecting in larger and larger groups, it became a practical problem of the natural animosities for people outside the smaller group being in such close proximity. It must now be remembered that these early societies were VERY dictatorial and higherarchical. And the leaders were probably VERY intellegent as compared to the common folk, and would realize it would be an advantage that people did not act on their natural animosity within the larger groups now collecting. So the morals were codified and enforced by the leadership. as time went on, more and more behaviors were found to be harmful to society as a whole, so more and more got codified....

No mystery, pure practicality.

That's an interesting theory, but that doesn't explain why you think it is wrong for a person on the opposite side of the world to kill, when he isn't a part of your tribe/society/culture. Or what gives you the right to claim he is wrong?

Normal · 06-25-2003, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden

Are you saying that measurements of length are intrinsic properties of matter?

No, I'm saying length itself is an intrinsic property of matter, not necessarily the measurements. What is the intrinsic property that allows humans to have morality?

Bill Snedden · 06-25-2003, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
No, I'm saying length itself is an intrinsic property of matter, not necessarily the measurements. What is the intrinsic property that allows humans to have morality?

Consciousness.

Normal · 06-25-2003, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
Consciousness.

Interesting, and how do you measure consciousness to bring about an objective moral system?

Bill Snedden · 06-25-2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
Interesting, and how do you measure consciousness to bring about an objective moral system?

You said allows, not "supports"...

Human consciousness (and I'm using this word in a very loose sense to include self-awareness, sentience, and rationality) provides a necessary framework without which moral reasoning would not be possible. In that sense it "allows" humans to have morality.

Morals and moral systems are based on values. "Value" presupposes a "valuer". Therefore, IMHO, "intrinsic value" is an incoherent concept. To speak of "objective moral systems" is thus a non sequitur.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Normal · 06-25-2003, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
You said allows, not "supports"...

If consciousness allows each person to have a basis for morality, each person's individual interpretation will be dependant on their consciousness. Allows doesn't become the problem as much as what is the rational basis for one person to impose their moral system on another?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
Human consciousness (and I'm using this word in a very loose sense to include self-awareness, sentience, and rationality) provides a necessary framework without which moral reasoning would not be possible. In that sense it "allows" humans to have morality.

It allows humans to have their own morality, but we are not talking about subjective morality in this case...

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
Morals and moral systems are based on values. "Value" presupposes a "valuer". Therefore, IMHO, "intrinsic value" is an incoherent concept. To speak of "objective moral systems" is thus a non sequitur.

And if "objective moral system" is incoherent, you should not feel it is wrong for a person to kill another person based on their subjective moral system.

Bill Snedden · 06-25-2003, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
Allows doesn't become the problem as much as what is the rational basis for one person to impose their moral system on another?

Obviously, there are rational bases for societies to impose sanctions based upon violations of laws (which are generally based on values and morals), but laws are not moral systems.

IMO, there is no rational basis for anyone to impose their moral system on another. There are, however, rational bases to argue why humans can (and should) agree on a moral system and there are also rational bases to argue why one moral system might be superior to another.

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
It allows humans to have their own morality, but we are not talking about subjective morality in this case...

In what case? In the case of god? Why does his opinion suddenly become "objective?"

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
And if "objective moral system" is incoherent, you should not feel it is wrong for a person to kill another person based on their subjective moral system.

Not at all. If I can rationally demonstrate that their moral system is incomplete, incoherent, or inadequate, then I can argue that their action is wrong.

IMO, the closest humans can get to "objectivity" is intersubjective agreement. I point to a chair and say, "chair". You point to the same chair, nod your head in agreement and say, "chair." We've just come to intersubjective agreement. I don't believe moral systems are any different, albeit far more complicated in process and praxis...

But this is really ranging too far afield for this forum; it seems to belong in MF&P. Perhaps one of the EoG moderators could split the thread? If not, perhaps your should consider re-starting the meta-ethical discussion portion in MF&P...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Darth Dane · 06-25-2003, 08:37 AM

Jesus said he was the truth the way and the Life

Jesus = God = Love

How is life created? By an act of Love or Love-making!
Life is not created out of hate, it seems contradictionary!

I have been told that the Law from God is thus:

Everything is allowed
Not everything is advisable to do!

But if we choose Life as being better than death(both for you and/or others), then it follows that we must choose Love as our moral compass and not hate.

DD - Love & Laughter

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06-25-2003, 01:40 AM	#31
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	The Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21) Does this mean when we bring out Love in our being that we are touching the kingdom of God? And that the more we Love the more we touch? How much can we touch? We bond with God by choosing Love before we choose anything else. (1st John 4:7-8. God is Love) By chossing Love what do we draw closer to? When I choose Love and see the smiles on others faces, I know I give glory to God(Love) Given this definition of God, I ask if you have touched the kingdom of God? Have you felt Love? All you need is Love Love thy neighbor as you Love yourself The way you do Love your neighbor IS the way you Love yourself DD - Love Spliff

06-25-2003, 08:37 AM	#40
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Jesus said he was the truth the way and the Life Jesus = God = Love How is life created? By an act of Love or Love-making! Life is not created out of hate, it seems contradictionary! I have been told that the Law from God is thus: Everything is allowed Not everything is advisable to do! But if we choose Life as being better than death(both for you and/or others), then it follows that we must choose Love as our moral compass and not hate. DD - Love & Laughter

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