Seraphim

1. They are at a level much lower than males, they are definately put down unfairly in Islam and in the Quran but they are not completely denied all rights whatsoever. You said "There is no such practise in Islam about giving voting rights to women" which is false, women do have the right to vote and in are at high ranking parliament positions. That's why I said you were a bit going too far, but I agree with your basic idea that women are unjustly and unfairly treated in Islam. I've mentioned that many times.

My reply : At least the acceptance of the basic idea is good enough.

2. Hah, thanks for making me look it up, because I found that there were more than 3 actually.

My reply : Lets see what had happened to them, shall we?

- Begum Khaleda Zia, Prime Minister of Bangladesh (1991-1996)
http://www.womenworldleaders.org/mem...haleda_zia.htm

Note : "... Following chaotic balloting and the eruption of violent riots, Zia agreed to hand over power to a caretaker government on 30 March 1996. "

- Megawati Soekarniputeri, forth President of Indonesia
I mentioned already this.

- A. Benazir Bhutto, recent Prime Minister of Pakistan
I mentioned already as well.

- B. Tansu Ciller, Prime Minister of Turkey from 1993 until 1996
http://i-cias.com/e.o/ciller_tansu.htm
No offence, but it seems that Ms. Ciller had been played around like a toy since started her career.

- C. Sheikh Hasina Wajed, another Prime Minister of Bangladesh
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/bangladesh011001.html

Overall ... I think it is acceptable.

3. You are generalizing about a whole group solely based on the beliefs and opinions of certain fanatic ulemas and terrorist groups. If you go to more modernized areas of Muslim countries or ask Muslim intellictuals I'm sure you'll see what I mean, sorry there is no way I can actually prove to you the opinion of millions of people.

My reply : Here's the problem - just how many countries in the world is actually can be said as Modernized Muslim country?

A representative from Zimbabwe came to NAM meeting in KL (my country) few days ago and he said this interesting comment - "Most people in my country don't even know how to use a typewriter, and you are talking about the Internet?"

And let me focus on the issue that Fanaticsm in Muslim society is more in undeveloped countries than in developed one. A clergy man can become a leader easily here if he says he speaking in accordance to Islam than he could in a country like Malaysia. And the people itself don't seems to care about been modernized as can be seens with kicking out of Benazir and Begum.

4. Like I said many times already I completely agree with you, barbaric practices such as stonings or beatings and such are not acceptable and stupid, I'm not trying to prove that women are not being treated unfairly, I'm trying to prove that it is not as horrible or as bad as some make it sound. Islam definately considers women inferior, why? Because the Quran was written by a group of Arab men during the Muhammad era, it is not the word of Allah, it is their word aimed at creating a society dominated by men which was consistent with the philosophy and culture of the Arab world at the time. But they don't completely deny women all rights at everything, Muslim women have made considerable advances in all fields in the modern times.

My reply : Nonsense ... a world ruled by men (and women) alone will not achieve anything useful.

Men are like machines while women are like grease, both is needed to get the society functioning properly. Try to subdue one by having the other weild more power and you will have imbalance in society. Society where men ruled will be chaostic because men attend to use force to solve problems rather than thinking, society where women rules attend to have less order where they attend to think too much and allow chaos to spread. We need Both.

Athius

sigh, am I talking in another language to you? How many times do I have to say that I don't agree with these ideas? You're talking to me as if I'm defending the idea of a male-dominated society, I said my belief was the women are put down so much in the Quran because the Quran was written by a group of men trying to make a biased (in their favor) society. In no way do I accept this idea. I just said I think this was the reason. Please show a sign that you understand. btw If you have missed it, I'm an Atheist, not a Muslim.

Seraphim

btw If you have missed it, I'm an Atheist, not a Muslim.

This is what I missed ... together with your intention of what seems to me was defending Muslim society.

If we all agreed, fine.

hinduwoman

UCE, god does not say women are toys --- it is Mohhomad who says so and he is the Messenger of God.


I quoted from the Koran with chaper and verse numbers to show that the Koran itself declares women are inferior to men. So why it is biased? Can you show me how these verses are 100% wrong?

hinduwoman

UCe, all the female leaders you mentioned had something in common --- they are somebody's wives or daughters. The people did not vote for them as much for their dead male relatives.
Generally muslim mass is not receptive to female leaders. In Malayasia PAS is campaigning for strict segregation and has said that Mahathir's arguments to bring women judges in sharia courts is an attack on Islam. PAS is not fringe, it has won in two or three Malaya provinces based on Islamic values and is poised to win two more. Again in Pakistan for example the women members of Parliament are treated as decorative pieces. MPA Humaira Awais Shahid in an interview said that anytime a woman member tries to speak they are abused by the male colleagues. There are dirty jokes and objectification of their bodies. If someone tries to take the floor the Speaker would send notes telling that women should not bother using their brains. " It appears to us that it is the same old people, same old system, same old mindsets and hence the same old assembly – so where is the change?"

What I really wanted to address is the issue of why you think Koran says men and women are equal. in Islam the inequal treatment stems directly from the Koran. So what exactly is your take on these verses I mentioned?

hinduwoman

You know Rivers your insistence that I do not have indepth knowledge of Islam and so shouldnot comment on it, is very like that of Religious Affairs Department in Malaysia which wants a ban on Muslims with no indepth of Islam (i.e, from their point of view of course) from commenting on Islam, particularly on the feminist groups.

pilaar

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River:
Women and Man are equal in Islam. They serve complementary roles. Unfortunately this is often misconstrued as inferiority when in actuality it is equality. In some domains Women are far superior than males, without a doubt...and Islam recognizes this.
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River:
the barbaric "Islam" that you describe is only a Patriarchal product of society.
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River:
Islamic Law regarding rights and obligations of husband and wife
Islam has put great stress on the relationship of husband and wife. It has clearly laid down the respective rights and obligations to avoid confusion and complication in this regard.

The basis of husband-wife relationship is love and compassion. In this regard the Quran states,

"And among His signs is this that He has created mates from among yourselves, that you may live in comfort with them, and he has put love and compassion among you (husband and wife). Surely in that are signs for those who think " (30: 21)

The role of husband normatively revolves round the principles that it is his solemn duty to Allah to treat his wife with kindness, honour and patience, to keep her honourably of free her from marital bond honourably, and to cause her no harm of grief (Quran, 2 : 229-32 and 4 : 19). The wife's position has been explained in the Quran by saying that-

"Women have similar rights over men as men have over women." (2 : 228)

The husband in Islamic law is under obligation to maintain her wife. Maintenance includes the wife's right to lodging, clothing, nourishing, care and well being. The wife has a right to enjoy all these things according to her status and according to capacity of her husband.

The wife, however, loses her right of maintenance, according to the unanimous opinion of the Muslim jurists, in case of Nushuz, that is her hatred of defiance of husband or her attraction to another person.

In case of husband's recalcitrance to maintain wife, the law enforcement agencies are required to enforce maintenance. The majority of Muslim jurists also allows the wife the right to seek divorce in such a case. If she wishes so, the court must comply with her request and grant her the divorce.

The wife has also the right to receive dower from the husband at the time or in consequence of marriage. The dower is a gift of husband to his wife. This symbolises an assurance of economic security from the husband towards wife. The amount can be big or small depending on mutual agreement and economic condition of the two parties. This is, however, no price of sexual enjoyment. This can not be so because sexual enjoyment is not a one-sided affair. (Ref: The Family Structure in Islam, Chapter 3, by Dr. Hammudah Abdul Ati, American Trust Publications).

The main obligation of the wife as a partner in a marital relationship is to contribute to the success and blissfulness of the marriage as much as possible. She should be attentive to the comfort and well being of her mate. The Quran mentions good wife as "comfort of eyes." (25 : 74)

The husband has been stated by scholars as the head of the family in Islamic family system. It is the duty of all family members to obey him in lawful matters. However, Islam has enjoined on all Muslims to manage their affairs (which includes family affairs) by mutual consultation. However, in case of disagreement, the head of the family should be obeyed. The mutual relation of men and women in Islam is that of "friend" and not of master and servant. The Quran says,

"Believers men & women are friends to one another (Wali), they enjoin right, forbid wrong, establish Salat, pay Zakat ,obey Allah & His Prophet" (9 : 71)

This is the last verse of the Quran on man-woman relationship and it shows that duties of men and women are basically same. (Please also refer verses 30 : 21; 3 : 194; 2 : 187; 33 : 35)

Husband alone has the right of sexual intimacy with wife. The wife must not allow any other person to have access to that which is exclusively the husband's right. Wife has similar right in this regard.

Islam has given the correct principles and instructions regarding rights and obligations of husband and wife. These principles, if obeyed in true spirit, would ensure better family and social life.
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I don't get it. You claimed that women and men are equal in Islam. Then you said that the barbaric Islam is a product of patriarchal product of society. So I assume that you consider patriarchy a negative influence. In the 3rd post you describe the Islamic Law on the relations betweem husband and wife, and the conditions you present are that of a patriarchal & oppressive marriage arrangement.
This is a similar reasoning I come accross in the christian religious right circles. They claim that genders are complementary & equal, then when you prod more and they go on to describe the conditions between men and women, what they describe is an oppresive system to the woman. They wrap it up in a sugar coted pretty coloured wrapping, and try to sell it as some sort of equality. And some women actually believe it!!!!! But actually it is the same old deal with a different name.
What I would suggest is that Islam as well as Christianity, have sprung up from the Patriarchal society, so they enforce and perpetuate the inequality.

pilaar

River

Pilaar,

What I'm basically saying is that the Islam , that Prophet Muhammad presented to the world was far more egalitarian than the Islam that is practiced today. For example, in Iran it is mandatory for women to cover their hair...this doesnt appear to be the case when you read the Quran. Also, in some countries, i.e Afghanistan, women cant be doctors....and Saudi Arabia..they can't drive .. It is without a doubt that Males have interpreted Islam in modern times to suit their desires. Its unfortunate but its true. However, at one time ( for 1,100 years actually) Islam was at its Golden Age and brought many positive elements to World Civilization. And now Islam, is at an all time low ( however, this is actually prophecized). Islam survived the Mongol invasion, it survived the Crusades...With every "Islamic crash" there will follow a rise. Actually the "Golden Age " of Islam is a teaser. The actual "golden age" had not occured. This is expected to occur with the advent of Jesus Christ, who will lead the world according to "true" Islamic law...and will renew Islam ( Imaan Islam or Pure Islam) ...However, He will descend from Heaven to Damascus, Syria during the middle/end of Some war.