Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Theli · 02-02-2003, 06:17 AM

7thangel...

Quote:

Though God is invisible, I see evidences of His existence because it is God Himself who gave me the understanding of such evidences.

I'm confused here, are you arguing for the existence of god or are you explaining your personal reasons to believe in god?
From our perspective, your claim has just as much (little) evidencial value as another person saying that Allah gave him the ability to see the truth. And to hold your claim to be the true one would be nothing more than special pleading.
On another note, you can't seriously think that everyone not members of your cult (atheists, and non-christian theists) will be punished for their disbelief, as the true believers are "selected" to believe.

7thangel · 02-02-2003, 03:48 PM

Luiseach said: I don't see the connection you seem to be making between nature and the supernatural here (BrotherMan already pointed out this non sequitur).
Furthermore, the statement that atheists 'believe that there is no such thing as good and evil' is both a hasty generalisation and, I believe, a straw man.

I said �invisible God,� not �supernatural God.� Maybe you�re thinking of other�s belief, not what I am stating in the post.

I agree to the atheist�s logic of saying that there is no such thing as good and evil in the absence of God. And it is not about harming anyone. They know what I am talking about.

JEST2ASK said: I am confused ... Basically what you are telling me is that the reason I did not find God or acceptable evidence (by my standards) was that it is God's expressed desire that I was created simply to be sent to hell (whatever version fits your theology .. fiery pit or separation) ... If that is your belief then what is the point of witnessing.

Man�s sanctification comes in various ways. The apostle Paul, for instance, was changed when Christ witnessed to him while on his way to persecute Christians. Some came to believe God through working of miracles. And some understand more of God through the story of Jacob and Esau. But experiencing the witnesses of God does not automatically mean that the person who experienced will be sanctified. In fact, Christ said that even if a dead rise, they will not believe. Christ said, �No one can come to me except the Father draw him.�

Also, we, ourselves, come to know each other as witnesses of God. As I said, it is God who has put in my will to witness of Him, and in the course, the lost may be saved, and others may be encouraged. Some may be like apostle Paul, who was changed on his way to persecute Christians.

But most of all, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. There is a process in having knowledge of God.

JEST2ASK: Separting the above out from all the excess leads me to conclude that for whatever foul thing I have done I am perfectly justified to say GOD NOT THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT. Hmmm will that stand up in Court .

The story of Jacob and Esau is a very good example about your question. Jacob �DECIEVED� his father, Isaac, to receive the promise intended for Esau. This is only to show that God is the one who choose who will be saved. And indeed, indirectly, we should say that God made him do it. But of course, it is of a purpose that we should know the power of God; unless you understand it otherwise.

The story of Jesus Christ being crucified to save us is for us to understand the salvation of God. It means that our salvation is not our very own doing, but of the plans of God. That�s how we can simply understand it, or otherwise you would say it is outrageously hilarious.

In the end, those who are chosen will come to be sanctified. As I said, �And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.�

Theli said: I'm confused here, are you arguing for the existence of god or are you explaining your personal reasons to believe in god?

Actually, it can be both.

Theli said: From our perspective, your claim has just as much (little) evidencial value as another person saying that Allah gave him the ability to see the truth. And to hold your claim to be the true one would be nothing more than special pleading.

I am just supporting my other statements. It doesn�t matter if I plead or not. Didn�t I said it is God himself who choose? Ask me of the rationality of what I am saying.

Theli said: On another note, you can't seriously think that everyone not members of your cult (atheists, and non-christian theists) will be punished for their disbelief, as the true believers are "selected" to believe.

It depends on God, one thing for sure is that they will be given to know and of the will to believe.

Wiploc · 02-02-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
I agree to the atheist�s logic of saying that there is no such thing as good and evil in the absence of God.

This is the Christian position, not the atheist position.
crc

Albert Cipriani · 02-02-2003, 08:46 PM

Dear Jobar,
All Christians and Catholics who say that God is outside the natural universe are the ones who are into something, they are in the deep shit of material heresy.

Revelation is replete with testimony to the contrary, for example: �He upholdeth all things by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3).� Saint Thomas Aquinas speculatively establishes the Divine preservation of the world on the fact that God is not merely the cause of the becoming of things, but also the origin of their being (Summa Theologica I 104).

So yes, Jobar, the � supposed creator of nature is within nature .� He�s into it as deeply as your image is into your mirror. He�s in nature in a way that�s way beyond the way in which we are in nature.

Going back to the mirror trope, we be the glass between His light and the mirror�s silver backing that reflects His light back to The Light. In other words, He goes through us and back to Himself. We may distort His light or faithfully allow it to pass unaltered, or even magnify it as did the Virgin Mary. (�My soul doth magnify the Lord.� Luke 1:46)

But this is all cheap rhetoric. I hope to over time be able to rationally explain myself. Patience my man. � Sincerely, Albert 2/3/02
groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

christ-on-a-stick · 02-02-2003, 09:35 PM

A.C.,

What happenned to "The Traditional Catholic"????

(please delete if I am hallucinating)

Albert Cipriani · 02-03-2003, 11:13 AM

Dear COAS,
Are U hallucinating? Only your drug pusher knows for sure. I may only suspect.

Unlike your melting walls, I remain a Traditional Catholic even when I don't bother to sign every post as such. I agree with Oscar Wilde who observed that "Consistency is the hobblegobble of little minds."

Ergo, for your hallucinating mind's sake, I now sign off: Sincerely, Albert Cipriani, The Traditional Catholic
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

Godless Sodomite · 02-03-2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Cipriani
I agree with Oscar Wilde who observed that "Consistency is the hobblegobble of little minds."

[/URL]

Not to pick nits and not add anything to the general discussion, but it was Ralph Waldo Emerson who made the "little minds" observation.

-Jerry

christ-on-a-stick · 02-03-2003, 11:59 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I usually have a good memory and it just seemed like something was... missing.... after your name!!!

Jobar · 02-03-2003, 02:50 PM

Albert, as ever I am interested in what you have to say- but being this is 7thangel's thread, let's not hijack it. I look forward to discussing how God is " in nature in a way that�s way beyond the way in which we are in nature"- in a separate thread.

7thangel, you say "we, ourselves, come to know each other as witnesses of God"- yet we unbelievers are witnesses that the concept of god is meaningless and self-contradictory. We don't believe any god or gods exist.

And I submit that you yourself are an atheist- just ask Ojuice5001, our resident polytheist and believer in the Roman pantheon. I only disbelieve in one more god than you do.

Albert Cipriani · 02-03-2003, 03:32 PM

Dear Jobar,
You argue that 7thangel is:

Quote:

an atheist- just ask Ojuice5001, our resident polytheist and believer in the Roman pantheon. I only disbelieve in one more god than you do.

Cute. But illogical Captain Kurt.

Theism does not lend itself to numerical qualification. Monotheists, monotriadists (that's me!), and polytheists are all believers in god, whereas, atheists are all dis-believers in god.

To give a monotheist demerits as a partial atheist because he disbelieves in bogus gods is about as fair as giving you guys credit for being partial Catholics because you disbelieve in the same bogus gods Catholics disbelieve in.

Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic 2/3/03

groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

02-03-2003, 11:13 AM	#16
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	LSD & COAS Dear COAS, Are U hallucinating? Only your drug pusher knows for sure. I may only suspect. Unlike your melting walls, I remain a Traditional Catholic even when I don't bother to sign every post as such. I agree with Oscar Wilde who observed that "Consistency is the hobblegobble of little minds." Ergo, for your hallucinating mind's sake, I now sign off: Sincerely, Albert Cipriani, The Traditional Catholic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

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02-02-2003, 03:48 PM	#12
7thangel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Queens Village, NY Posts: 613	Luiseach said: I don't see the connection you seem to be making between nature and the supernatural here (BrotherMan already pointed out this non sequitur). Furthermore, the statement that atheists 'believe that there is no such thing as good and evil' is both a hasty generalisation and, I believe, a straw man. I said �invisible God,� not �supernatural God.� Maybe you�re thinking of other�s belief, not what I am stating in the post. I agree to the atheist�s logic of saying that there is no such thing as good and evil in the absence of God. And it is not about harming anyone. They know what I am talking about. JEST2ASK said: I am confused ... Basically what you are telling me is that the reason I did not find God or acceptable evidence (by my standards) was that it is God's expressed desire that I was created simply to be sent to hell (whatever version fits your theology .. fiery pit or separation) ... If that is your belief then what is the point of witnessing. Man�s sanctification comes in various ways. The apostle Paul, for instance, was changed when Christ witnessed to him while on his way to persecute Christians. Some came to believe God through working of miracles. And some understand more of God through the story of Jacob and Esau. But experiencing the witnesses of God does not automatically mean that the person who experienced will be sanctified. In fact, Christ said that even if a dead rise, they will not believe. Christ said, �No one can come to me except the Father draw him.� Also, we, ourselves, come to know each other as witnesses of God. As I said, it is God who has put in my will to witness of Him, and in the course, the lost may be saved, and others may be encouraged. Some may be like apostle Paul, who was changed on his way to persecute Christians. But most of all, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. There is a process in having knowledge of God. JEST2ASK: Separting the above out from all the excess leads me to conclude that for whatever foul thing I have done I am perfectly justified to say GOD NOT THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT. Hmmm will that stand up in Court . The story of Jacob and Esau is a very good example about your question. Jacob �DECIEVED� his father, Isaac, to receive the promise intended for Esau. This is only to show that God is the one who choose who will be saved. And indeed, indirectly, we should say that God made him do it. But of course, it is of a purpose that we should know the power of God; unless you understand it otherwise. The story of Jesus Christ being crucified to save us is for us to understand the salvation of God. It means that our salvation is not our very own doing, but of the plans of God. That�s how we can simply understand it, or otherwise you would say it is outrageously hilarious. In the end, those who are chosen will come to be sanctified. As I said, �And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.� Theli said: I'm confused here, are you arguing for the existence of god or are you explaining your personal reasons to believe in god? Actually, it can be both. Theli said: From our perspective, your claim has just as much (little) evidencial value as another person saying that Allah gave him the ability to see the truth. And to hold your claim to be the true one would be nothing more than special pleading. I am just supporting my other statements. It doesn�t matter if I plead or not. Didn�t I said it is God himself who choose? Ask me of the rationality of what I am saying. Theli said: On another note, you can't seriously think that everyone not members of your cult (atheists, and non-christian theists) will be punished for their disbelief, as the true believers are "selected" to believe. It depends on God, one thing for sure is that they will be given to know and of the will to believe.

02-02-2003, 08:46 PM	#14
Albert Cipriani Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,018	Dear Jobar, All Christians and Catholics who say that God is outside the natural universe are the ones who are into something, they are in the deep shit of material heresy. Revelation is replete with testimony to the contrary, for example: �He upholdeth all things by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3).� Saint Thomas Aquinas speculatively establishes the Divine preservation of the world on the fact that God is not merely the cause of the becoming of things, but also the origin of their being (Summa Theologica I 104). So yes, Jobar, the � supposed creator of nature is within nature .� He�s into it as deeply as your image is into your mirror. He�s in nature in a way that�s way beyond the way in which we are in nature. Going back to the mirror trope, we be the glass between His light and the mirror�s silver backing that reflects His light back to The Light. In other words, He goes through us and back to Himself. We may distort His light or faithfully allow it to pass unaltered, or even magnify it as did the Virgin Mary. (�My soul doth magnify the Lord.� Luke 1:46) But this is all cheap rhetoric. I hope to over time be able to rationally explain myself. Patience my man. � Sincerely, Albert 2/3/02 groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

02-02-2003, 09:35 PM	#15
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	A.C., What happenned to "The Traditional Catholic"???? (please delete if I am hallucinating)

02-03-2003, 11:59 AM	#18
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Thanks for the clarification. I usually have a good memory and it just seemed like something was... missing.... after your name!!!

02-03-2003, 02:50 PM	#19
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Albert, as ever I am interested in what you have to say- but being this is 7thangel's thread, let's not hijack it. I look forward to discussing how God is " in nature in a way that�s way beyond the way in which we are in nature"- in a separate thread. 7thangel, you say "we, ourselves, come to know each other as witnesses of God"- yet we unbelievers are witnesses that the concept of god is meaningless and self-contradictory. We don't believe any god or gods exist. And I submit that you yourself are an atheist- just ask Ojuice5001, our resident polytheist and believer in the Roman pantheon. I only disbelieve in one more god than you do.

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