7thangel

Evidence from Creation

The Bible is the most unique among other books because it treated human what it really deserve. Teachings such as salvation by grace, predestination, and lack of free will or ability to seek that which is good, and man being a mere dust, all of which teaches that man’s being is at the mercy of it’s creator. And as a support of these facts, Romans 1: 19-20 said, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

In this age, there are evidences that “free will” and “intellect” does not really exist. The person “I” does not really exists apart from the nature. Man’s brain is just a mere part of the complex chain of cause and effect among particles. Major intellectual atheists, correct me if I’m wrong, have this belief. Ergo, they believe that there is no such thing as good and evil. And that as they accept how nature works, they judge things according to how nature works.

In reality, that is actually the aim of God. That if we find it reasonable to submit to the power of natural laws, we should find it reasonable to submit to the one who has power even over the natural laws. So then God would say, “they are without excuse.”

Isn’t this a profound evidence of God’s existence?

BrotherMan

I'm no expert, but those are components of many ancient mythological belief systems.

I don't find it reasonable to submit to natural laws. I'd love to be able to fly like Superman, but that would require supernatural abilities. Besides that, I it doesn't logically follow that if I did submit willingly to natural laws that I should find it reasonable to submit to that which doesn't exist and cannot have control over natural laws.

You made an illogical leap from natural laws with who and what is bound by them then assumed that they exist because someone or something put them there. That is a non sequitur.

philechat

If we have no free will, then God must have willed us not to believe in him, if He happens to exist. In short, we are those predestined to hell due to God's will, and not wills of our own.

If we "obey" natural laws, it is because we cannot do otherwise, not because we want to obey them. Similarly, if we have no free will, all of our actions must stem from God's will alone, and there's no reason we will have any so-called "moral obligation" to obey him, i.e. we obey what God dictates (even in our atheism) because we are made to do so by God alone.

Note it will actually lead to God being the author of "Why I am not a Christian", the initiator of the atheism movement, and the creator of Greek mythology.

Also, fatalism is found not only in Christian texts, but in Greek tragedies and Hindu poetry as well. I would say Christianity has no monopoly on this worldview, especially when "all" texts sacred and secular are created by God (assuming God exists and we have no free will).

Wiploc

Does that mean that people can see god?
crc

Albert Cipriani

Dear Brotherman,
You wrote:
You're phrase "natural laws," like oil and water, is a compounding of the un-compoundable. Laws are laws and what is natural is what is natural and the twain don't meet. To say you don't submit to natural laws is like saying you don't go in a north-east-south-west direction. My point being, as sharp as any compass point, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!

Man’s nature is simply DIFFERENT that superman's nature. There is no natural law for you and supernatural law for him. Rather, Natural Law comes into play when you act in a way that is contrary to your own nature, say, trying to fly "faster than a speeding bullet." Then you could say you violate your nature, or that you refused to submit to your nature, but not that you broke the natural law. Rather, the law of your nature can break you. You can't break it.

For the record, I think that "supernatural and natural" are not useful terms. Like the words "red" and "orange," what we call "natural" or "supernatural" seem to be arbitrary. All the colors of what we call the light spectrum are just the visible gradations of the much longer continuum of radiant energy. Where we distinguish one color from the next color is a distinction without a difference. Likewise, the line we draw between what's natural and supernatural is arbitrary. There's a commonality of natures in the nature of a rock, a slug, a human, and God.

An easier way of saying what I just said is to say that there is only one reality. Most Christians subscribe to a two-tone worldview, natural and supernatural realities. But carrying such a notion out to its logical conclusion would have us believe in a God Who lives in a house divided. Such a concept cannot stand. -- Cheers, Albert Cipriani

Luiseach

I don't see the connection you seem to be making between nature and the supernatural here (BrotherMan already pointed out this non sequitur).

Furthermore, the statement that atheists 'believe that there is no such thing as good and evil' is both a hasty generalisation and, I believe, a straw man.

7thangel

philecat said: If we "obey" natural laws, it is because we cannot do otherwise, not because we want to obey them.

That’s right, that is how man is characterized of God. Thus the holy ones are “CHOSEN” not because they have willed to be holy. It is God himself who sanctifies the holy men.

philecat said: Similarly, if we have no free will, all of our actions must stem from God's will alone, and there's no reason we will have any so-called "moral obligation" to obey him, i.e. we obey what God dictates (even in our atheism) because we are made to do so by God alone.

Yes, we have no moral obligations, it is God himself who put unto His chosen the will to obey Him. Though God is invisible, I see evidences of His existence because it is God Himself who gave me the understanding of such evidences. And therefore made me will to believe and obey God.

philecat said: Note it will actually lead to God being the author of "Why I am not a Christian", the initiator of the atheism movement, and the creator of Greek mythology.

Yes indeed. Isaiah 45:7 says, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”

But God has a purpose in creating evil, that is, to show itself the very nature of His godhead. But rest assured that God, in the end, will sanctify any evil men, whom He had CHOSEN, to come unto holiness. The very example of it is Paul and Jacob. Jacob deceived his Father, Isaac, to receive the blessing. Jacob got the blessing not because he is good, but because he was chosen even before he was born. Paul, on the other hand, even having a perfect heart of killing the Christians, was changed when Jesus called him to be used in God’s glory. This process of choosing the ones being saved is called predestination.

You would probably ask why He made you an atheist. Paul said, [i]“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”[i] If ever you will be changed, that depends if God had chosen you to be changed and know the blessedness of God.

Knowing that it is God who ordains all things, we become free from sin. That is what Christ meant in saying, “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” For we now understand that it is God who made us after our own weaknesses, and therefore commit errors, and therefore sins. But it is God Himself who will help us in such weaknesses. And thus Paul said, “…all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

But again, as Paul said, some are made vessel to honor(being predestined to eternal life), and some are made to dishonor(predestined to eternal death).

God Bless

JEST2ASK

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7thangel
[B]
That’s right, that is how man is characterized of God. Thus the holy ones are “CHOSEN” not because they have willed to be holy. It is God himself who sanctifies the holy men.

Yes, we have no moral obligations, it is God himself who put unto His chosen the will to obey Him. Though God is invisible, I see evidences of His existence because it is God Himself who gave me the understanding of such evidences. And therefore made me will to believe and obey God.




I am confused ... Basically what you are telling me is that the reason I did not find God or acceptable evidence (by my standards) was that it is God's expressed desire that I was created simply to be sent to hell (whatever version fits your theology .. fiery pit or separation) ... If that is your belief then what is the point of witnessing



.[i]

Yes indeed. Isaiah 45:7 says, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” .... cut - snip This process of choosing the ones being saved is called predestination. ..... If ever you will be changed, that depends if God had chosen you to be changed and know the blessedness of God.



Separting the above out from all the excess leads me to conclude that for whatever foul thing I have done I am perfectly justified to say GOD NOT THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT. Hmmm will that stand up in Court ....

Quote:

But again, as Paul said, some are made vessel to honor(being predestined to eternal life), and some are made to dishonor(predestined to eternal death). God Bless

:banghead: God Bless ... :banghead:

Jobar

7thangel:
Though God is invisible, I see evidences of His existence because it is God Himself who gave me the understanding of such evidences. And therefore made me will to believe and obey God.



Reeee-ally? So... God Himself... gave you, personally... the wisdom and vision to understand "such evidences" which none of us skeptics can perceive. How, um, marvellous.

So oh mighty prophet, are you here to impart your 'understanding' to us? We're not too busy right now, so you need not take a number- go right ahead.

Albert Cipriani:
Most Christians subscribe to a two-tone worldview, natural and supernatural realities. But carrying such a notion out to its logical conclusion would have us believe in a God Who lives in a house divided.

So when they say that God is outside the natural universe, Albert, you disagree? The supposed creator of nature is within nature? How Taoistic of you!

WWSD

No, it is simply evidence that you have interpreted the bible in your own unique way. It is not evidence in any sense at all.

This process of choosing the ones being saved is called predestination.

So are you a Calvanist?

But again, as Paul said, some are made vessel to honor(being predestined to eternal life), and some are made to dishonor(predestined to eternal death).


So why then are you here bothering to preach to atheists who have obviously been chosen to have "eternal death?"

Are you saying that those of us bound for "dishonor" are here to teach you people something about how great god is? Yeah, well, you can have your bizarre god concept.

God Bless

What's the point? Why would god bless me if he is sending me to hell anyway? Why should Icare if this god blesses me or not, he created me just to punish me.