Freethought & Rationalism Archive

alek0 · 03-20-2002, 08:56 PM

He never read the whole bible and freely admits that OT is disgusting nonsense, but he believes that Jesus existed and that he had "divine origin". He is aware that some parts of Jesus story have parallels in earlier myths, but never read any details about it. He beleives that bible contains hidden message based on some calculations on "code" and fractals and what not, accepts that this is meaningless unless it is shown that no other book contains "hidden message" and all translations of the bible contain "hidden messages" but this didn't disturb his beleif that there is hidden message in there.

In addition to Christian beleifs (though there isn't complete overlap with any major Christian denomination), he beleives in all the New Age stuff with balancing the energy etc. He also beleives in other dimensions, spirits etc. What is most surprising, the guy is a scientist.

How do I approach this problem? Where do I start debating this? Any suggestions? I don't want to start an argument, and I have to be polite and I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I don't want to listen about hidden messages and divine origins of the bible either.

Arrowman · 03-20-2002, 09:55 PM

Oh, boy are you up against it here! If your description of this guy's belief system is halfway accurate, he should be written up as a case study for Michael Shermer. I'm surprised he can function in society.

Some background please - What sort of scientist, and what is your relationship with him? When/where do you meet and discuss these things? Does he want to discuss/debate?

I'd like to think about this one, if I may - somehow methods of serious debate don't readily spring to mind when you're talking about a person whose cognitive dissonance would appear to score about 55 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Only one piece of advice comes immediately to mind - don't expect to get anything out of the discussion other than mild entertainment, and a peek into the dark netherworld of the irrational mind. Any higher expectation would be on a par with taking a 24 hour business trip to China and expecting to actually close a deal.

Well that was a non-productive little rant of mine, wasn't it? Sorry - I just had to get those thoughts out of my head before they congealed

Maybe I can come up with something more thoughtful later - there are greater minds here than mine, and I really look forward to their thoughts.

alek0 · 03-20-2002, 10:18 PM

Arrowman:
He is doing research in microelectronics, has good background in physics/EE, but was raised in extremely religious family. He wants to discuss/debate.

What I expect to gain from debate/discussion is ending subtle or not so subtle hints that I should change, become more "spiritual", work on "higher awareness" etc.

alek0 · 03-23-2002, 06:34 PM

Any suggestions? Please, please, please...

mac_philo · 03-23-2002, 07:17 PM

Sure: don't debate him.

From what you've said, he seems to be like the majority of Xtians. He doesn't debate, he tries to show you that you are ignorant and encourages you to convert.

Find something else stimulating to discuss. Life is short and you won't convince each other of anything.

alek0 · 03-23-2002, 08:23 PM

Easy to say, hard to do. I don't want to convince him of anything other than to keep his religious beleifs more private and leave me alone to my wicked, infidel, non-spiritual ways.

I mean I'm not too happy with the fact that he prays when he gets up, prays before going to bed, prays before every meal but that's none of my business and I can easily live with that. But when it comes to that "don't you feel the need to give thanks", my migraines being the result of unbalanced energies, same i.e. unbalanced energies, goes for my inability to acheieve certain yoga positions (gee, and I thought it was because of my broken tailbone since I could do it just fine before that) etc. I am very fond of the guy, he is a very nice man, but I am very much afraid that there'll be lots of trouble since any mention of "divine" with christian connotations is enough to get my hackles up. I am trying very hard to keep an open mind, but I am really getting tired of this. So I am looking for advice how to respectfully approach these subjects and reach peaceful status quo if possible.

Edited to add: while reading another thread, I just got a great idea. I'll invite Amos to visit, and two of them can debate, and they might even understand each other quite well.

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: alek0 ]</p>

nixon · 03-24-2002, 01:12 AM

Yes that sounds like a dandy idea!!!

pescifish · 03-24-2002, 04:35 AM

I don't know if debate is the kind of interaction most New Age Christians would be able to go for. Logic and rational argument probably won't be a top priority and you might explode from the frustration of brilliant yet mispent arguments. From what you say, it doesn't sound so much the religion part of it as the 'blessed' lifestyle that this person is foisting off on you.

I'd deal with him the same as I deal with any macrobiotic, high-colonic, divine-juicer kind of person. Tell him to back off on that crap and look/act very scary anytime he starts in on hinting at advice. Have one very earnest conversation with him telling him what kind of crap you don't want to hear from him and then remind him (with a growl and laser-eye daggers) each time he crosses the line. And if that doesn't work, overwhelm him with twinkies and beer, demonstrating your own resolve.

mac_philo had the right idea

Quote:

Find something else stimulating to discuss. Life is short and you won't convince each other of anything.

Arrowman · 03-24-2002, 02:38 PM

OK - some random thoughts. A very difficult task, debating this guy. But if you're both up for it, I'd suggest sticking to one specific subject and one only, to start with. Pick one of his favourite beliefs, like "crystals can cure genital warts" or whatever, and debate it. Turn his scientific method back on to him, to the point where he is saying "I believe 'just because'". Won't happen of course because he has a lot invested in his beliefs, but anyway....

Keep it subject specific, and keep it on something where there is a reasonable expectation of an evidential basis to the belief, rather than pure faith. Keep it on something contemporary - easier to debate whether crystals are curing warts in teh world today, than whether Jesus rose from the dead 2,000 years ago.

And don't let him wander off onto general spiritual bullshit; all that stuff about "becoming more 'spiritual, working on 'higher awareness' etc." is just code / excuse for being loose minded and gullible.

(In fact, why don't you try asking him what's the difference between "higher awareness" and "gullibility"

)

For every belief that he has, find one he doesn't have and ask him what is the difference. For example, if he believes in tarot but not astrology, ask him what's the difference (in quality of evidence etc).

Maybe pick something relevant to his area of expertise, and manufacture a weird belief based around it (like supposed behaviour of a particular circuit) - a belief that in his area of professional expertise he would immediately apply science and skepticism, and reject it based on lack of evidence, and then ask him what's the difference.

Keep it calm, don't attack (too much) - just challenge. Remember (again) - he has a lot more invested in this than you.

If he's up for it, go for it. But keep the above in mind and don't expect too much.

When you feel the veins in your forhead popping, give it away

Samhain · 03-24-2002, 07:03 PM

Another good way would to be to carve a pentagram on your forehead and run around saying that you aren't possessed but that you are the devil incarnate. At this point you're pretty much beyond saving for them.

03-20-2002, 08:56 PM	#1
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	how to debate religion with New Age Christian? He never read the whole bible and freely admits that OT is disgusting nonsense, but he believes that Jesus existed and that he had "divine origin". He is aware that some parts of Jesus story have parallels in earlier myths, but never read any details about it. He beleives that bible contains hidden message based on some calculations on "code" and fractals and what not, accepts that this is meaningless unless it is shown that no other book contains "hidden message" and all translations of the bible contain "hidden messages" but this didn't disturb his beleif that there is hidden message in there. In addition to Christian beleifs (though there isn't complete overlap with any major Christian denomination), he beleives in all the New Age stuff with balancing the energy etc. He also beleives in other dimensions, spirits etc. What is most surprising, the guy is a scientist. How do I approach this problem? Where do I start debating this? Any suggestions? I don't want to start an argument, and I have to be polite and I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I don't want to listen about hidden messages and divine origins of the bible either.

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03-20-2002, 09:55 PM	#2
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Oh, boy are you up against it here! If your description of this guy's belief system is halfway accurate, he should be written up as a case study for Michael Shermer. I'm surprised he can function in society. Some background please - What sort of scientist, and what is your relationship with him? When/where do you meet and discuss these things? Does he want to discuss/debate? I'd like to think about this one, if I may - somehow methods of serious debate don't readily spring to mind when you're talking about a person whose cognitive dissonance would appear to score about 55 on a scale of 1 to 10. Only one piece of advice comes immediately to mind - don't expect to get anything out of the discussion other than mild entertainment, and a peek into the dark netherworld of the irrational mind. Any higher expectation would be on a par with taking a 24 hour business trip to China and expecting to actually close a deal. Well that was a non-productive little rant of mine, wasn't it? Sorry - I just had to get those thoughts out of my head before they congealed Maybe I can come up with something more thoughtful later - there are greater minds here than mine, and I really look forward to their thoughts.

03-20-2002, 10:18 PM	#3
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	Arrowman: He is doing research in microelectronics, has good background in physics/EE, but was raised in extremely religious family. He wants to discuss/debate. What I expect to gain from debate/discussion is ending subtle or not so subtle hints that I should change, become more "spiritual", work on "higher awareness" etc.

03-23-2002, 06:34 PM	#4
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	Any suggestions? Please, please, please...

03-23-2002, 07:17 PM	#5
mac_philo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Tax-Exempt Donor, SoP Loyalist Posts: 2,191	Sure: don't debate him. From what you've said, he seems to be like the majority of Xtians. He doesn't debate, he tries to show you that you are ignorant and encourages you to convert. Find something else stimulating to discuss. Life is short and you won't convince each other of anything.

03-23-2002, 08:23 PM	#6
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	Easy to say, hard to do. I don't want to convince him of anything other than to keep his religious beleifs more private and leave me alone to my wicked, infidel, non-spiritual ways. I mean I'm not too happy with the fact that he prays when he gets up, prays before going to bed, prays before every meal but that's none of my business and I can easily live with that. But when it comes to that "don't you feel the need to give thanks", my migraines being the result of unbalanced energies, same i.e. unbalanced energies, goes for my inability to acheieve certain yoga positions (gee, and I thought it was because of my broken tailbone since I could do it just fine before that) etc. I am very fond of the guy, he is a very nice man, but I am very much afraid that there'll be lots of trouble since any mention of "divine" with christian connotations is enough to get my hackles up. I am trying very hard to keep an open mind, but I am really getting tired of this. So I am looking for advice how to respectfully approach these subjects and reach peaceful status quo if possible. Edited to add: while reading another thread, I just got a great idea. I'll invite Amos to visit, and two of them can debate, and they might even understand each other quite well. [ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: alek0 ]</p>

03-24-2002, 01:12 AM	#7
nixon Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Valleyview, OH USA Posts: 6,638	Yes that sounds like a dandy idea!!!

03-24-2002, 02:38 PM	#9
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	OK - some random thoughts. A very difficult task, debating this guy. But if you're both up for it, I'd suggest sticking to one specific subject and one only, to start with. Pick one of his favourite beliefs, like "crystals can cure genital warts" or whatever, and debate it. Turn his scientific method back on to him, to the point where he is saying "I believe 'just because'". Won't happen of course because he has a lot invested in his beliefs, but anyway.... Keep it subject specific, and keep it on something where there is a reasonable expectation of an evidential basis to the belief, rather than pure faith. Keep it on something contemporary - easier to debate whether crystals are curing warts in teh world today, than whether Jesus rose from the dead 2,000 years ago. And don't let him wander off onto general spiritual bullshit; all that stuff about "becoming more 'spiritual, working on 'higher awareness' etc." is just code / excuse for being loose minded and gullible. (In fact, why don't you try asking him what's the difference between "higher awareness" and "gullibility" ) For every belief that he has, find one he doesn't have and ask him what is the difference. For example, if he believes in tarot but not astrology, ask him what's the difference (in quality of evidence etc). Maybe pick something relevant to his area of expertise, and manufacture a weird belief based around it (like supposed behaviour of a particular circuit) - a belief that in his area of professional expertise he would immediately apply science and skepticism, and reject it based on lack of evidence, and then ask him what's the difference. Keep it calm, don't attack (too much) - just challenge. Remember (again) - he has a lot more invested in this than you. If he's up for it, go for it. But keep the above in mind and don't expect too much. When you feel the veins in your forhead popping, give it away

03-24-2002, 07:03 PM	#10
Samhain Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,735	Another good way would to be to carve a pentagram on your forehead and run around saying that you aren't possessed but that you are the devil incarnate. At this point you're pretty much beyond saving for them.

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