Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GunnerJ · 07-06-2002, 08:31 AM

...rails against <a href="http://newsday.com/mynews/ny-p2icon2774903jul06.story" target="_blank">"secular fanaticism."</a>

Quote:

Since Sept. 11, we've been living with the specter of religious fanaticism. So it's grimly refreshing that two judges from the Ninth Circuit on the Left Coast have now offered us a glimpse of secular fanaticism.

Unless you've been living in a potato sack, you know the court ruled that the Pledge of Allegiance (because it includes the words "under God") violates the First Amendment provision against the establishment of a national religion.

That is not true.

What is true is that the ruling violates both common sense and the foundations of our country's deepest political and religious identity.

I want to write a reply to this, but right now my rage is so intense that I cannot formulate a coherent sentence on the subject. I guess I'll spread the hate with you.

BTW, what did Eisenhower say in favor of his perversion of the pledge? And was it the Constitutional Convention where the suggestion ot starts with a prayer was shot down? When did Congress start each session with a prayer? This infor would be appriciated.

The Other Michael · 07-06-2002, 09:17 AM

Hi Rimstalker,

Take a deep breath, hold it, let it out. Now slowly back away from the keyboard and no one will get hurt . . .

I just fired off a letter to the SF Chronicle in response to a Boston Globe column (Jeff Jacoby) that appeared yesterday pointing out how the Founders meant God to be part of the Constitution (sorry, I can't find a free online copy of the column), and one of the justifications used was their having "in the year of our lord" in the date.

Grrrrrrrr.

It appears that is typical reasoning for Jacoby, based on some of the stuff that I turned up on a Google search on him.

cheers,
Michael

enemigo · 07-06-2002, 09:22 AM

Quote:

And was it the Constitutional Convention where the suggestion ot starts with a prayer was shot down?

Yes it was during the drafting of the Constitution at the Constitutional Convention that Benjamin Franklin proposed that they begin each day with a prayer. From what I have been able to gather, I think the main reason that they denied Fanklin's request was because they were already halfway through and hadn't been doing it the whole time, and also because they didn't have money to pay a minister to come lead them in prayer.

Franklin's final comment on the matter was:

"The convention, except three or four persons, thought prayer unnecessary."

Here is a pretty thorough article on the subject:
<a href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19" target="_blank">http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19</a>

richard

Toto · 07-06-2002, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by enemigo:


Here is a pretty thorough article on the subject:
<a href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19" target="_blank">http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19</a>

Wallbuilders.com is an anti-separation site. It is detailed because it has to work very, very hard to explain away how a motion for prayer was rejected.

Buffman · 07-06-2002, 11:10 AM

From the article:

We Americans believe our rights come from God - not from the state.

(Just some thoughts for your consideration.)

These types are correctly going to claim that the DoI founded our country and it states that all men's rights (women and slaves didn't have these same rights) are endowed by "their" Creator (Evolution was unknown) God. HOWEVER, the United States Government was founded upon the ratification of the U.S.Constitution and Bill of Rights whose Preamble clearly sets out that it is "We the People" not any supernatural jealous and vindictive God, or transient Federal/State elected Government, who will deliniate those rights in accordance with the desired goals established in that Preamble.

eileen · 07-06-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:
From the article:

We Americans believe our rights come from God - not from the state.

(Just some thoughts for your consideration.)

These types are correctly going to claim that the DoI founded our country and it states that all men's rights (women and slaves didn't have these same rights) are endowed by "their" Creator (Evolution was unknown) God. HOWEVER, the United States Government was founded upon the ratification of the U.S.Constitution and Bill of Rights whose Preamble clearly sets out that it is "We the People" not any supernatural jealous and vindictive God, or transient Federal/State elected Government, who will deliniate those rights in accordance with the desired goals established in that Preamble.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! More signs of intelligent life. I am going to print this out and post it on giant poster board all over my town!!! (well, maybe in my mind, but it should be done!!
I love you!!!

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

GaryP · 07-06-2002, 05:50 PM

Even in the Declaration it states;

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,--deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

It does NOT say that governments are instituted or controlled by god.

Allkholollick · 07-07-2002, 12:14 AM

I saw this crap in my local paper today. They also saved up all of the letters to the Editor bitching about the Pledge and printed them in the Fourth of July edition.

I don't know if I can respond properly. The sick thing is that people really believe this shit.

lpetrich · 07-07-2002, 12:37 AM

And where does the Bible talk about the Biblical God granting rights to anything?

It's only theory of government is obedience to authorities considered legitimate, though leaders are sometimes faulted for things considered wicked, like worshipping pagan deities.

Oresta · 07-07-2002, 04:26 AM

Quote:

I want to write a reply to this, but right now my rage is so intense that I cannot formulate a coherent sentence on the subject.

Rimstalker, I know exactly how you feel. I am here trying to get into a rational frame of mind to respond to a column in this AM's Detroit Free Press. It contains that requisite Big Lie that the country was founded "under God" and more non sequiturs per column inch than I have seen in a long time.

<a href="http://freep.com/news/metro/riley7_20020707.htm" target="_blank">http://freep.com/news/metro/riley7_20020707.htm</a>

Buffman,
Your succinct post should be engraved in stone. May I quote you in my response to this air head?

[Edited to add:] Welcome to II, Eileen!

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-06-2002, 09:17 AM	#2
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi Rimstalker, Take a deep breath, hold it, let it out. Now slowly back away from the keyboard and no one will get hurt . . . I just fired off a letter to the SF Chronicle in response to a Boston Globe column (Jeff Jacoby) that appeared yesterday pointing out how the Founders meant God to be part of the Constitution (sorry, I can't find a free online copy of the column), and one of the justifications used was their having "in the year of our lord" in the date. Grrrrrrrr. It appears that is typical reasoning for Jacoby, based on some of the stuff that I turned up on a Google search on him. cheers, Michael

07-06-2002, 11:10 AM	#5
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	From the article: We Americans believe our rights come from God - not from the state. (Just some thoughts for your consideration.) These types are correctly going to claim that the DoI founded our country and it states that all men's rights (women and slaves didn't have these same rights) are endowed by "their" Creator (Evolution was unknown) God. HOWEVER, the United States Government was founded upon the ratification of the U.S.Constitution and Bill of Rights whose Preamble clearly sets out that it is "We the People" not any supernatural jealous and vindictive God, or transient Federal/State elected Government, who will deliniate those rights in accordance with the desired goals established in that Preamble.

07-06-2002, 05:50 PM	#7
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Even in the Declaration it states; That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,--deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed It does NOT say that governments are instituted or controlled by god.

07-07-2002, 12:14 AM	#8
Allkholollick Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 151	I saw this crap in my local paper today. They also saved up all of the letters to the Editor bitching about the Pledge and printed them in the Fourth of July edition. I don't know if I can respond properly. The sick thing is that people really believe this shit.

07-07-2002, 12:37 AM	#9
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	And where does the Bible talk about the Biblical God granting rights to anything? It's only theory of government is obedience to authorities considered legitimate, though leaders are sometimes faulted for things considered wicked, like worshipping pagan deities.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.