Walter_Mitty

For some it can be, but at this point I'm not sure whether or not the benefits out weigh some of the problems it seems to create. Some of the SAME problems that keeps recurring throughout history.

Doubtful because I see atheism as a factual premise. Atheism is not meant to be a moral system or a belief system, IMO.

What I do think is that if society were exposed to more critical thinking and science, there would be a tendency for more people to choose non-theistic value systems.

I consider myself to subjectivist and tend to derive value from life based on this notion. I also believe morals and values are human constructs. The roofer you describe appears to be limited in education and a worldview. IMO he is very similar to the many inmates that I once worked with. Some of these guys could barely read or write, much less wax philosophical about the finer points of theology or philosophy.

At the risk of generalizing, those who post on regular basis here at iidbII are not "typical." Theistic or otherwise, they tend to be well educated and have an interest in science, philosophy, and the like. There is a large gap between "us" and Joe Roofer or Joe Inmate.

Back to your question...

For a very small minority I did see Christianity and Native American spirituality make a difference. For others they both failed on grand scale. I also saw MANY more problems with those inmates that converted to the Nation of Islam.

I think what is really needed is more education. I feel that this would allow people to make a much more informed choice. I also think it would tend to put a damper on fundamentalism if you had more people thinking.

I also think (or hope) that the better educated the world becomes, the less we would see of theism. Or, theism might evolve into something that is less volatile.

As it stands in its present bloody form, I would have to say give that roofer a book, not a bible.

-Bib

babelfish

GeoTheo -

It only seems like Christianity is beneficial to people who are trying to turn their lives around, because those are the only people you hear about. They are the ones who get on their soap-box and loudly proclaim their newfound faith and all the ways that it has benefited them.

Now if an un-believer decides to quit drinking, doing drugs, swearing, carousing at topless bars, beating his wife, and abusing his children, not for any religious reason but just because he wants to, he is less likely to proclaim it from the roof-tops (even if he happens to be an atheistic roofer).

So you just don't hear about these cases as much.

That doesn't mean there aren't hundreds or even thousands of un-believers who have turned their lives around quietly, without having to turn to religion and the loud proselytizing that often follows.

I speak from experience, by the way.

Veil of Fire

If it neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg, why not?

Kvalhion

Perhaps you should ask yourself if it is the tenets of Christianity that is turning the lives of these people around or if Christianity is the excuse and motivation these people need in order to turn their own lives around?

In my opinion, someone who turns their life around says more about the person rather than what it was that got them to change. The way you present this scenario, you make it seem inevitable that these people's lives would not be turned around if it weren't for Christianity, as if there are no alternatives. I do not accept that; there are plenty of other programs and motivations for people to aspire to.

A program like Christianity cannot make or force a person to change or not commit crime or violence. Such change is brought about by the person him/herself.

I do not view people who seem to have problems within society as being specifically without a particular religion. In fact, many people who do profess themselves as being Christian make up a large part of the people who commit crimes and go to jail.

While Christianity can be used as a tool or crutch for some people, it is certainly not the only option and IMO, far from the best option.

Do you feel the same way about people who lie? As long as nobody is hurt or harmed then it must be okay?

The reason why it is not acceptable is because it is replacing one problem with another, rather than providing any kind of solution. Someone who subscribes to something they know to be untrue is avoiding something that will not simply vanish if ignored.

daemon

That's an interesting question.

In my opinion, Christianity has good points and bad points. On the plus side, mainstream interpretations of Christianity encourage a large number of values that I appreciate. I see this as beneficial, as it encourages people unwilling to think about consequences and others to do behave in a better fashion. On the down side, it teaches Christians to not think for themselves, as well as magical thinking. Further, not all interpretations of Christianity are as positive; some are downright malignant.
Got me. Maybe, maybe not. I'm of the opinion that it is more dependant upon the person than their belief system.
If the only thing restraining him from acting like a moron is his religious belief, I'd say he has more problems than his religion.

I must say, GeoTheo, you don't paint a particularly flattering picture of the average Christian's intellect.

christ-on-a-stick

LOL LadyShea - "The Argument From Roofing"!

Veil of Fire

Why not?

If it doesn't affect me negatively one way or the other, why should I care?

Sorta like homosexuality. It doesn't affect me one way or the other who sleeps with who, so why should I care?

Arrowman

Goliath, that's a keeper. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Corgan Sow

Are their any atheists here that think Christianity can be a positive force in individual peoples lives and in society?

I think GeoTheo, Christianity is a joke. For all the good points of Christianity, you can find them in Buddhism and Taoism.

Christianity almost cost me my life, and thank *God* those atheists at Gamefaqs helped me to see the delusion behind the world's biggest cult. Encourages total superstition, not to mention pyschologically you're screwed because you rely on *God* everytime you are in trouble, and all the trauma in process of *faith*.

What is worst is in Asia and Africa where faith in religion is priority than reasoning by science. It encourages backward thinking compared to fundemental Buddhism and Taoism. I rather have these two than Christianity, thank you.

sighhswolf

I dont think Jefferson was talking about ignoring,
or being apathetic towards religious beliefs more like acceptance, tolerance and the establishing of freedoms.... freedom OF and freedom FROM religion.
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -Thomas Jefferson
Considering the man had a major dislike of the Institution of religion.

Wolf