Magus55

No Messianic Jew.

Jack the Bodiless

Magus55:

I'm not sure that you fully understand the magnitude of the problem.

It isn't just the lack of independent confirmation that Jesus fulfilled prophecies. There are two additional problems that most Christian apologists will not face: the FALSE prophecies (which were not fulfilled, and in many cases can no longer BE fulfilled, even in a "second coming"), and the false claims that various prophecies actually WERE prophecies.

Let's go back to the "virgin birth". The Hebrew word "almah" means "young woman": in modern parlance, a teenager (and probably a young one at that: maybe 13-14 years old). Such women were commonly still virgins, but not necessarily. If the author had wished to specify a virgin, there is a Hebrew word for that: "bethulah" means "virgin".

Furthermore, this birth was to be a sign to King Ahaz that "within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people". Why give a "sign" centuries later?

I hereby claim that I am a prophet. I prophesy that Bush will capture Osama Bin Laden and slay Saddam Hussein. To prove this, I hereby prophesy that in the year 2160, a child will materialize directly from the Internet, and they shall call him "Sparky". Do you see how useless this "sign" is?

Of course, Jesus wasn't called "Immanuel" either (except by those who chose to call him that because of this alleged prophecy). He was called "Jesus".

Moving on:
Bethlehem was a MAN, not a PLACE: a descendant of Caleb and Ephratah. Those who argue that the "Beth" prefix always indicates a place are ignoring what the Bible plainly states: this man is mentioned in Chronicles 2:51, 2:54 and 4:4 (though they don't agree on whether Bethlehem's father was Salma or Hur, or even if Caleb was the son of Hur: one of many hundreds of Biblical contradictions).

Furthermore, this prophesied child and his followers would "lay waste the land of Assyria with the sword" (Micah 5:6). Jesus didn't do that!

Furthermore, the two Nativity stories contradict each other. Jesus was supposedly born in the reign of Herod (died 4 BC) and the governorship of Quirinus (appointed 6 AD). And no Roman census required people to return to their birthplace: the purpose of a census is to determine how many people are currently living in each town.

There are more examples of non-prophecies related to the Nativity:
Matthew (again) has deliberately mangled Hosea 11:1, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt". It is a reference to the Exodus.
This is a reference to Jeremiah 31:15-17, which discusses the escape from the Babylonian captivity. Again, Matthew is abusing and distorting scripture.

And so it goes...

Bogus prophecies have always been a part of Christianity. And the author of the gospel of Matthew is the worst offender.

Dargo

As a Messianic Jew, you would still not believe the claims made for the Catholic saints. Some of these legends have far better documentation than anything Jesus did. There is a recent article on the Secular Web about the miracles attributed to St. Patrick. Supposedly, he raised the dead, cured the blind, and even calmed a storm in the English chanel. A group of druid priests tried to opposed him, and they were all struck dead! Surely, these amazing things must have happened. All those people who saw these things can't be wrong can they?

If you were to research the history of Catholic saints, you would undoubtedly find many similar claims. I believe some of them may have even risen from the dead. I'm sure hinduwoman could tell us about miracle claims made in Hindu scriptures which were allegedly witnessed by many. We skeptics find the tale of Jesus rising from the dead no more likely than any of these other fabulous claims for the supernatural.

It's intersting within the last few hundred years the miracles seem to have dried up. The miracles recently attributed to Mother Teresa are pathetic compared to what the earlier saints did.

Jack the Bodiless

...Well, there are two miracles associated with Mother Teresa that are quite impressive.

One is the fact that she is regarded by many as a great humanitarian despite not providing painkillers for her patients. Many of them died in screaming agony. She thought that suffering was holy.

Secondly, there is the miraculous disappearance of virtually all the money donated to the Sisters of Mercy. Sorta like the loaves-and-fishes stunt, but in reverse.

Jack the Bodiless

Another interesting aspect of the "Bethlehem birth":

It isn't in Mark, which is considered to be the earliest of the synoptics. It was a later embellishment of the legend, in Matthew and Luke.

But it IS alluded to in John:
So the crowd believed in the mangled prophecy, that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. But the author of John evidently did not: he has members of the crowd rejecting Jesus because he was NOT born in Bethlehem.

There is no subsequent clarification. Apologists like to pretend that these people were somehow mistaken about the birthplace of Jesus, but John does not "correct this oversight" for the reader. He lets it stand: they rejected Jesus because "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet".

John obviously doesn't care about the "prophecy", or the fact that Jesus failed to fulfil it.

This is evidence that the "prophecy" was not considered relevant by many, and also that Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem anyhow.

gcameron

Well, Fatima occured only 86 years ago and supposedly had 70,000 witnesses...

Bumble Bee Tuna

Magus-

You say "Thallus was a secular scientist" yet you qoute him as saying "the passion of our Savior". Sounds real secular...

You also claim "Christianity became the official religion of rome shortly after the resurrection". What? You consider nearly 300 years to be "shortly after"? The edict of Milan was in 313 CE.

-B

WinAce

I'd really love to see a single prophecy that can't be debunked faster than cold fusion.

Sauron

Not only that, but Tyre never fell. And given the fact that the text in Ezekiel specifically names Nebuchadnezzar as the conqueror - a conquest which never happened - the prophecy has failed.

Sauron

Basically, this is just a cut-copy-paste from Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict".

You do realize that these examples have all been refuted, right Magus?