Gooch's dad

OK, Magus55, here's your chance to show that Jesus fulfilled some OT prophecy. In order to do so, you need to show that the event actually happened, as opposed to the gospel account being a fabrication that tries to fit to a prophecy.

And get this through your head, ok? Showing that Jesus lived, and was crucified (which is all the secular historians claim about Jesus) doesn't show that all the rest of the gospel stories are true, ok?

For example, the fact that I believe L. Ron Hubbard lived and died, and wrote a book called Dianetics, doesn't mean that I think that the claims of Scientology are facts. Can you comprehend this difference?

So to show a fulfilled prophecy, you need to provide the OT prophecy, show that the writer of that passage was actually writing a prophecy about a future Messiah, and you need to show that the gospel account of it is a reliable historical account. To do the last bit, you need to provide a secular historian who isn't biased towards converting new Christians, and who substantiates the gospel accounts.

Good luck. I'd say your chances are a lot lower than those probabilities creationists like to trot out all the time.

Magus55

Ok, to start off for now, here is a list of some of the Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled in history as grounds to show the validity of the Old Testament.

http://www.evangelismtoolbox.com/go....e&resource=806

A few examples from there:

Cyrus

The prophet Isaiah, writing about 700 B.C., names Cyrus as the king who will say to Jerusalem that it shall be built and that the Temple foundation shall be laid (Isaiah 44:28; 54:1).

At the time of Isaiah's writing, the city of Jerusalem was fully built and the entire temple was standing. Not until more than 100 years later, in 586 B.C., would the city and Temple be destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar.

After Jerusalem was taken by the Babylonians, it was conquered by the Persians in about 539 B.C. Shortly after that, a Persian king named Cyrus gave the decree to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. This was around 160 years after the prophecy of Isaiah!

Thus Isaiah predicted that a man named Cyrus, who would not be born for about a hundred years, would give the command to rebuild the Temple, which was still standing in Isaiah's day and would not be destroyed for more than a hundred years. This prophecy is truly amazing, but it is not isolated. There are, in fact, hundreds of prophecies which predict future events.




2. Sidon



Ezekiel 28:22,23 (592 - 570 B.C.) And say, "Thus says the Lord GOD,



'Behold, I am against you, O Sidon, and I shall be glorified in your midst.

Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I execute judgments in her. And I shall manifest My holiness in her.

'For I shall send pestilence to her

And blood to her streets,

And the wounded will fall in her midst by the sword upon her on every side;

Then they will know that I am the LORD."'



Predictions



1. There is no mention of her destruction.

2. Blood will be in the streets (28:23).

3. A sword will be on every side (28:23).



George Davis strikes a good contrast between Tyre and Sidon in his book, Fulfilled Prophecies That Prove the Bible. He says:



The prophecy against Sidon is very different from that concerning Tyre. It was foretold that Tyre would be destroyed, made bare like a rock, and built no more. The prediction against Sidon is that blood will be in her streets, her wounded shall fall in the midst of her, and the sword is to be on her every side. But there is no doom of extinction pronounced against her as was the case of Tyre.



Fulfillment



Floyd Hamilton explains what happened in the fourth century B.C.:

In 351 B.C. the Sidonians, who had been vassals of the Persian king, rebelled, and successfully defended their city against his attacks. At last their own king, in order to save his own life, betrayed the city to the enemy. Well knowing what the vengeance of the Persian king would be, 40,000 of the citizens shut themselves up in their homes, set fire to their own houses and perished in the flames rather than submit to the torture of their enemies! Blood indeed was sent into the streets. (Prediction #2.)


Mr. Davis explains that "not once but many times blood has been in [Sidon's] streets, her wounded have fallen in the midst of her and the sword has been 'upon every side.' " (Predictions #2 and 3.)

In The Basis of the Christian Faith, Floyd Hamilton cites another time Sidon was destroyed, writing that Sidon

was soon rebuilt, however, and though it has been captured over and over again, its citizens butchered and houses razed time after time, the city has always been rebuilt, and is today [19271 a town of over 15,000 inhabitants. Blood has flowed in the streets again and again, but the city stayed in existence and stands today, a monument to fulfilled prophecy. 65/300

George Davis records: "In the days of the Crusades (Sidon) was taken and retaken, again and again, by opposing forces. Three times it was captured by the Crusaders, and three times it fell before the Moslem armies."

And he further notes that

even in modern times tribulation has continued to be meted out to the city. It has been the scene of conflicts between the Druses and the Turks, and between the Turks and the French. In 1840 Sidon "was bombarded by the combined fleets of England, France and Turkey."

Morris explains: "No fate of extinction was foretold for Sidon and even today it is a city of about 20,000 [19561. However, it has had one of the bloodiest histories any city ever had." 97/113 (Predictions #1 and 2.)

CONCLUSION
George Davis concludes with a chilling claim:

No human mind could have foretold 2,500 years ago that Tyre would be extinct, and Sidon would continue, but suffer tribulation during the succeeding centuries, instead of Tyre enduring sorrows, and Sidon being desolate and deserted during the long period.



3. Samaria



Hosea 13:16:



Samaria will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.



Micah 1:6:



For I will make Samaria a heap of ruins in the open country,

Planting places for a vineyard. I will pour her stones down into the valley,

And will lay bare her foundations.



Predictions



1. The city will fall violently (Hosea).

2. It will become "as a heap in the field" (Micah).

3. Vineyards will be planted there (Micah).

4. Samaria's stones will be poured down into the valley (Micah).

5. The foundations shall be "discovered" (Micah).



Fulfillment



According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Sargon took Samaria in 722 B.C. Not only did Samaria fall by the sword in 722, but also in 331 B.C. by Alexander and a third time in 120 B.C. by John Hyreanus, all conquerors causing great damage and death to the citizens of Samaria. Even the skeptic who would contend that the destruction of Samaria came after the event will not be able to disagree about the rest of the ramifications.



John Urquhart records Henry Maundrell's reaction in 1697 to what he witnessed:



Sabaste is the ancient Samaria, the imperial city of the ten tribes after their revolt from the house of David.... This great city is now wholly converted into gardens, and all the tokens that remain to testify that there has ever been such a place, are only on the north side, a large square piazza encompassed with pillars, and on the east some poor remains of a great church. (Predictions #2 and 3.)



Predictions #4 and #5 find fulfillment through Van de Velde, who calls Samaria

a pitiable hamlet, consisting of a few squalid houses, inhabited by a band of plunderers.... The shafts of a few pillars only remain standing to indicate the sites of the colonnades.... Samaria, a huge heap of stones! Her foundations discovered, her streets ploughed up, and covered with corn fields and olive gardens.... Samaria has been destroyed, but her rubbish has been thrown down into the valley; her foundation stones, those ancient quadrangular stones of the time of Omri and Ahab, are discovered, and lie scattered about on the slope of the hill. 128/128 (Predictions #4 and 5.)

Gooch's dad

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop right there. Please demonstrate that Isaiah was written BEFORE the event, and not afterwards. You're off to a poor start there, Magus. Tsk, tsk.

2. Sidon

Are you serious here? A prophecy that a city will be attacked and blood will be shed in her streets? How about a prophecy that is a bit more specific here?

I find it hilarious that you're ignoring the Tyre prophecy, which says that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre utterly. No, it wasn't Nebbie and 'some others', it was Nebbie. Otherwise you don't have a specific prophecy, you've got an open-ended prophecy that the city might someday be destroyed. And Nebbie didn't destroy Tyre, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus is described as visiting Tyre in the gospels.

Moving right along to....

3. Samaria

Where you provide this prophecy:

"Hosea 13:16:


Samaria will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open."

Again, a prophecy that a city will be attacked and women and children will be killed. Huh? This isn't specific, it happened all over the world for all of history.



And will lay bare her foundations. Which means that the buildings will be destroyed. Again, big deal.


Magus, rather than wandering all over the OT for prophecies, just stick with the original question. Name a specific prophecy about Jesus, and show that it was fulfilled. And the gospels are not defensible as accurate historical accounts, unless the fulfilled prophecy is substantiated by secular historians.

Waiting....

Magus55

http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html


Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:


Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}


From the historian Josephus-
Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17}

From the Babylonian Talmud-
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."{21}

Gooch's dad

(Yawn)

Magus, I'm not a Jesus-myther. I think it is likely that he lived and died. That's all the secular historians substantiate--that Jesus lied and died. They don't substantiate ANY of the supposed prophecy fulfillments, do they?

Spaz

Lol, sorry but that just made me laugh, it's like saying "jesus loved all the animals even those who were involved in killing, for example, humans."

And then quoting, "jesus loved...animals...killing...humans."

Not judging its merit, it's just the amount of ellipses that made me laugh

Magus55

It is relevant because Jesus' crucifixtion is one of the major prophecies predicted 1000 years earlier, and since some of the atheists here (Jack the Bodiless for one) say Jesus didn't even exist let alone, exist and be crucified as was prophecised 1000 years before.

Butters

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Tyre has never been extinct, and in fact, exists today.

Butters

This reminds me of something I read a while ago, can't remember where, but the author pointed out that the Bible also predicted the destruction of Damascus. It never fell. And he pointed out that with all the warfare going on in the region, over at least hundreds of years, that predicting the fall of a city was almost a sure thing. If the Bible had predicted that Damascus would NEVER fall, now that would have been something.

Magus55

Here is an account of what Thallus stated about the darkness that took place at the crufixition ( an eclipse was impossible by since there was a full moon).
(taken from neverthirsty.org)

"This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as it appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse occur when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun?

Phlegon records that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth — manifestly that one of which we speak." The Extant Writings of Julius Africanus 18

Thallus was a secular scientist.

Here are is a quote from the Acts of Pontius Pilate describing Jesus' miracles.

"'At His coming the lame will leap as a deer, and the stammering tongue will clearly speak: the blind will see, and the lepers will be healed; and the dead will rise, and walk.' And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." First Apology 48.

'''They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were driven into His hands and feet. And. . . they cast lots for His clothes, and after they crucified Him distributed it among them. And that these things did happen , you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.' First Apology 35."'At His coming the lame will leap as a deer, and the stammering tongue will clearly speak: the blind will see, and the lepers will be healed; and the dead will rise, and walk.' And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." First Apology 48.

Here is the prophecy:

"Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy (NIV)." Isa. 35:5-6

And the fullfillment:

". . . a great number of people . . had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by evil spirits were cured, and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all (NIV)." Luke 6:17-19.

Jesus' was rejected:
Prophecy:

"He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering . . . (NIV)." Isa. 53:3

Fullfillment:

"Now to you who believe, this stone (i.e. Jesus) is precious. But those who do not believe, 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. (NIV)" 1 Pet. 2:7-8.

Historical proof from the Talmud:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. . . but since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." Babylonia Sanhedrin 43A

I've already mentioned passages from the historian Josephus about his ressurection and the Toledeth Jesu ( a historic jewish document) records Jesus' empty tomb ( which was guarded by a roman soldier).