Freethought & Rationalism Archive

7thangel · 04-14-2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
Is God the biggest mass murderer of all time?

In the year 2000 there were about one billion people (912.3 million) who were atheist, agnostic or nonreligious. (according to Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year.) While that is the third largest group in the world after Christians and Muslims, A casual reading in the media might lead one to think we�re all but nonexistent. As one of this group, (strong agnostic) it�s with some measure of sad irony that I watch the outpouring of grief and anger by many religious denominations over the WTC and Pentagon bombings on 9-11-01. We hear the anguished denunciations that the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, fearless of death, don�t represent the �true Islamic religion�. Really.
Though there are examples of good moral teachings to be found in all religious books, there are also teachings found in them that can lead right to the acts perpetrated on us by the Osama Bin Laden�s, the neo-nazi Christian right, and the other fundamentalist followers of the Abrahamic religions, be they Christian, Muslim or Jew.
Religious scholars often point to the �free will� argument, to explain away this murderous and barbaric behavior by religious zealots. So lets look at one disturbing example of God�s, not man�s, behavior, the great flood and Noah�s ark. (Geneses 6-9) God drowns everyone but Noah and his family for their �corruption�. OK, what sin and corruption did the babies and little children of these people, or for that matter the animals on this planet, commit? None. I guess they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, right? Is mass murder the only answer an omnipotent God had for this sinful behavior? In our time this would be called genocide, the first recorded instance I believe. But for the true believer it is the work of a �just� and �merciful� God? Not in my book.

Of course there are many who would interpret God�s actions differently, and that begs the point of this intellectual exercise. One can interpret the holy books any way one wants to, because there will be no intervention coming directly from God on this, will there? There hasn�t been any direct intervention in man�s behavior in over two thousand years, has there? As long as there�s no direct action from God to prevent those that seek to take religion down the path of madness, death and destruction, we will continue to suffer from this barbaric behavior. Sooner or later the worst of these groups will possess weapons of mass destruction, and they�ll use them in the name of God. Genocide was good enough for God to use against those guilty of �corruption�, following his example should be OK for the zealots, right? Religious warfare is, after all, as old as recorded history, still ongoing, and apparently endless.
Humanity, not a mythical God, is in control of this planet and its resources. Isn�t it time to put the religious fables away and pursue our evolutionary path into the future? Humanity must use logic, reason and the rule of manmade laws to craft our future, not religious teachings that can be interpreted any way those in power want to interpret them.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: David Payne ]

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: David M. Payne ]</p>

Simple, God is responsible for the death of all, the good and the evil, because He created human as mortals. So, He is responsible even of the death of theists.

Yet God is also responsible of the resurrection of the righteouss.

Jobar · 04-14-2003, 08:26 PM

7thangel:
Simple, God is responsible for the death of all, the good and the evil, because He created human as mortals. So, He is responsible even of the death of theists.

Yet God is also responsible of the resurrection of the righteous

Well, that's a first. 7thangel, are you agreeing with David here?!

David M. Payne · 04-15-2003, 12:34 AM

FS your side isn't doing to well on this thread, intellectually speaking. Your God is either the biggest mass murderer of all time, or he/she/it is a myth, take your pick. (I vote myth.

) As for your incredibly long rant, if some one wants to address it, be my guest. It's all been discussed before in this thread and soundly refuted. In the meantime I'll wait for FS to address this:

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
FS, you won't get a reply from me until you address the issue of your false accusation that I plagiarized "The Story of Bob."

I know you think what you did was the same as what I did when I compared you to the black knight in Monty Pythons "The Holy Grail," But they are two different things entirely. I poked fun at someone on the Secular Web who posts the same defeated arguments over and over again and goes by the name FarSeeker. Who is he/she? Who knows, I don't. That FS person has suffered no real damage by my post.

You on the other hand accused me of stealing someone else's ideas and representing them as my own. (Plagiarism.) That isn't a joke, its an accusation that smears my REAL NAME on the internet for the whole world to see, get it?

You owe me an apology, be a man/woman and make it.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

.

Jack the Bodiless · 04-15-2003, 02:13 AM

Quote:

FS: If you don�t have reliable data, you have no reliable claims. Tho it is interesting how you blithely skip over your fellow Atheists� mass murders. What do Atheists do when people don�t do what Atheists want them to? Marginalize them, exclude them from having a voice in their government and demonize them; some have even gone so far as killing them - here, right in the U.S.

This appears to be a classic paranoid rant. What on Earth are you blathering about now???

Quote:

On the other hand, the U.S. governments (state and Federal) have executed criminal for their crimes. I guess you are calling the entire American population supporters of genocide. You no doubt support having Ted Bundy (http://www.crimelibrary.com/bundy/attack.htm) go free.

[deleted insult]

Quote:

God is our authority, yes. We are to do as He instructed, yes. God commands us not to murder, thus we must obey Him. Atheists have no such commandment. You believe that If a Christian murders, it is some how the fault of his religion, but If an Atheist murders it is only his own fault. That is the absurdity of your rationalizations. Your argument FOR mass murder only works if you�re an Atheist.

Incorrect. Not every Christian killer kills FOR his religion (though it's interesting to note that their religion didn't stop them). But when they specifically SAY that they killed for God...

Nobody kills FOR atheism.

Quote:

God tells us to do nothing to those who refuse to follow Him; both Mark 6:10-13 and Luke 9:51-56 state this explicitly. Atheists have no such command against murder. If an Atheist can rationalize it, they can do it. And just as the "big lie" is spread by repeating it, so you are successfully spreading your lies about Christianity by repeating them on this forum.

Round-Earthism has no such command against murder either. But what use is a command against "murder" (which means unlawful killing), when Christians can convince themselves that killing for their God is lawful?

And what is this "big lie"?

Quote:

What would you do with those committing horrendous crimes? The options you gave failed to be viable. Please, try again.

We are not omnipotent. Supposedly, your God is. Please, try again.

Quote:

Was Vorky lying or just ignorant? Nice of Atheists to accuse Christians of not doing their research, but when an Atheist fails to, it�s all, "ssshhhhh, do not criticize a fellow Atheist!" I ask again: where is your dissention with Vorky�s falsehoods.

He was neither lying nor ignorant. Orwell was extrapolating what he saw in Britain in 1948 to the year 1984, and making comparisons with Stalinist Russia.

Quote:

Fascism is more popular with Atheist controlled states than it is with Christian controlled states. I repeat the fact again: every Atheist controlled nation that ever existed (to my knowledge) has been fascist. Deal with it.

Even though fascist Germany, Italy and Spain were Christian, and Baathist Iraq and Syria were/are Muslim?

And are you insisting that New Zealand is fascist?

Quote:

In the year 2000 there were about one billion people (912.3 million) who were atheist, agnostic or nonreligious. (according to Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year.)

Where you expressly made reference to "atheist, agnostic or nonreligious." Expressly separating Atheist from non-religious; meaning Atheism IS A RELIGION!

Again, are you being deliberately obtuse? "Atheist, agnostic or nonreligious" is nothing more than a grouping of similar terms that non-theists might use to describe themselves. They are not mutually exclusive!

Quote:

Neither the Bible nor God is Authoritarian any more than the Laws in the U.S and the police who properly enforce them.

There is no threat of eternal damnation?

Quote:

Atheism supports Marxism because it is the reasoning of a man.

More paranoid delusion. Atheism does not support Marxism. I am an atheist: I do not support Marxism.

Quote:

Amen-MOses, thanks for pointing this out. Religion and politics make an explosive mixture. The real tragedy is we seem to have to learn it in every generation - again and again.

Nicely said DD, that's one wheel we need to stop reinventing.
David

AH, IT BEGINS!
One, DP says Christians are a threat to everybody, thus they must be marginalized. Another Atheist claimed that Christians were abused in Communist countries because they were a threat to those governing. AM just stated that allowing Christians into the political process would be dangerous. HMMMM. You�ve just proved my point about Atheists� thinking: all religious persons are seen as a threat and must be removed from and positions of power (i.e. removed from government positions and Office): in other words you want Jim Crow laws for Christians.

Supporters of freedom you are not!

Nore paranoid fantasy! How dos the phrase "that's one wheel we need to stop reinventing" turn into a call for active oppression of Christians?

And what's the relevance of "Another Atheist claimed that Christians were abused in Communist countries because they were a threat to those governing"? Yes, this is true. But when will you get it into your head that WE ATHEISTS ARE NOT COMMUNISTS? We are not saying that WE will abuse Christians because they are a threat to US governing!

The rest is too incoherent to make any sense to me...

7thangel · 04-15-2003, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
7thangel:
Simple, God is responsible for the death of all, the good and the evil, because He created human as mortals. So, He is responsible even of the death of theists.

Yet God is also responsible of the resurrection of the righteous

Well, that's a first. 7thangel, are you agreeing with David here?!

No, by portraying God as evil. Even as a pantheist, I don't think we can accuse God of murder, right? Just like when we prepare turkey for "thanksgiving," killing a turkey is not murder as we define it by human perpective, etc. It is unfortunate for some humans to define God according to their own perspective. I am just glad I do not think like a turkey.

Jobar · 04-15-2003, 06:16 AM

OK, keep it civil, people. I know that FS owes David an apology, but the best way to deal with him until he gives it is just to ignore him; any further insults will be deleted, possibly with a sledgehammer.

Wyz_sub10 · 04-15-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FarSeeker
[After some post that aren�t worth our time.]

Should I infer that you cannot address my points or will not address my points?

I realize that you have your hands full here, and that you really would rather deal with David Payne, but I was hoping you would at least a few salient points from my last post.

Your call, of course.

7thangel · 04-15-2003, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
FS your side isn't doing to well on this thread, intellectually speaking. Your God is either the biggest mass murderer of all time, or he/she/it is a myth, take your pick. (I vote myth.) As for your incredibly long rant, if some one wants to address it, be my guest. It's all been discussed before in this thread and soundly refuted. In the meantime I'll wait for FS to address this:

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

.

David, sincerely, do you have proof that your mind is outside of your body? And if so, what is it made of, and how does it exist?

And also, do you really think, killing a turkey for thanksgiving is a murder?

I will appreciate your respond.

revelation · 04-15-2003, 09:02 AM

:banghead:

David
Your mind is within your subconscious guess the question should really be ....... where does your subconscious exist. The way i see it MIND is a component (if you like) of your subconscious .

Killing a turkey on thanksgiving definitly isn't murder why does it exist in the low levels of the foodchain......?

cheers mate

revelation

David M. Payne · 04-15-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
No, by portraying God as evil. Even as a pantheist, I don't think we can accuse God of murder, right?

This is a freethinkers BB, and yes we can accuse the biblical (Mythical) God of murder based on our definition of murder.

From MS Encarta; "Murder, in criminal law, intentionally causing the death (homicide) of any person."

Did God unintentionally kill everyone on earth but Noah and his family? No, he did it on purpose, to punish those he found guilty of the sin of corruption. Not just those he found guilty of what we humans would call a capital crime that caries the death penalty, but those whose actions, the sin of corruption, merely displeased him. And this would include the children and babies, who are without sin, as well as the innocent animals who CAN'T EVEN sin. The theist viewpoint is that he's God he can do no evil, and by their definition he is not to be judged by us. Well we reject that notion, and do judge him by his own standards. To murder everyone and thing on the planet save one boatload is the ultimate in mass murder. This God of yours is omnipotent and could chose any number of methods to change the behavior he found so objectionable, but he chooses the worst one, mass murder to get his message across. This God is a monster by his own definition of what is monstrous. Fortunately like most monsters he is an imaginary one, but that hasn't stopped those who believe in him from imitating some of his worst traits. See 9/11 for the latest example of this behavior.

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
Just like when we prepare turkey for "thanksgiving," killing a turkey is not murder as we define it by human perspective, etc. It is unfortunate for some humans to define God according to their own perspective. I am just glad I do not think like a turkey.

So what are you saying here 7th, that God looks at us like we are turkeys, we are food for him to consume? That would mean that God isn't just a mass murderer, but a cannibal to? (We are made in his image, right?) Well this is an interesting perspective, would you care to elaborate on it?

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

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04-14-2003, 08:26 PM	#382
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	7thangel: Simple, God is responsible for the death of all, the good and the evil, because He created human as mortals. So, He is responsible even of the death of theists. Yet God is also responsible of the resurrection of the righteous Well, that's a first. 7thangel, are you agreeing with David here?!

04-15-2003, 06:16 AM	#386
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	OK, keep it civil, people. I know that FS owes David an apology, but the best way to deal with him until he gives it is just to ignore him; any further insults will be deleted, possibly with a sledgehammer.

04-15-2003, 09:02 AM	#389
revelation New Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: kenya Posts: 1	:banghead: David Your mind is within your subconscious guess the question should really be ....... where does your subconscious exist. The way i see it MIND is a component (if you like) of your subconscious . Killing a turkey on thanksgiving definitly isn't murder why does it exist in the low levels of the foodchain......? cheers mate revelation

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