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Posted by Zero Angel:
I thought they just knew of a doctor named Jesus that specialized in lobotomies.

CX

The apologetic contained within the NT itself points to this conclusion. Pauls says that only the "spiritual man" can discern "spiritual things". Jesus repeatedly talks about the masses and even the disciples hearing and failing to understand. It's an easy out for Xians in the face of intelligent opposition. It's a philosophical last line of defense that creates an unresolvable catch-22 for the non-Xian. Throw in confessional statements about "child-like faith" and it completes the picture. Ultimately religious belief is predicated on faith over reason. You must believe first without evidence in order to accept and appreciate the gospel.

WJ

Ish!

Well, I'm a Christian and I'll give you my opinion. I'm not completely sure I understand the complete context in which you speak about, but the statement about...knowing Jesus... relates to revelation that only occurs thru one's exerience. That is the basis of *meaning* viz. the concept of God (and any subsequent discussions about it that purport any such meaning).

Walrus

hezekiah jones

It's kind of like the "Fuck You" at the end of an argument.

Perchance

I always saw that as the Christian version of the "I-want-to-exclude-other-people-to-feel-good-about-myself" quote. I've seen and heard other variations. Some people use, "Well, you need to be older to understasnd." Others use, "Well, you'd understand if you were female," or "male," or "white," or "black." It's a way of setting up barriers, preserving a kind of exclusive little club that makes the people making the statement feel good about themselves (after all, they know something that other people don't) and gives them a kind of identity.

I think it would be the same thing if any non-believer said, "Well, you need to believe that the Bible is bullshit first." It's one thing to say that someone can come to this conclusion- believing in Jesus, or disbelieving in the Bible- after study. It's another thing entirely to claim that someone can, in effect, understand your position only after accepting that your position is true.

It's always puzzled me.

-Perchance.

IvanK

But, at least arguably, we've all had the same kinds of experiences. Why do only some of us seem to get this revelation of which you speak?

Here's an example to think about. There are people who report that, at night, they experience bright lights, buzzing noises, and sensations of traveling rapidly, generalized fear and being probed in various parts of their body. Some of these people undergo hypnosis and later claim that they have been abducted by space aliens.

I have experienced all those things and yet I do not believe that I have ever been abducted by space aliens.

Am I missing something here, something like this revelation of which you speak? Or is there an alternative, non-supernatural explanation for these sensations that I have experienced?

Martin Gibbs

Those experiences have been documented. I recently finished a book called "Borderlands" by Mike Dash, in which he explores all the things of the "Paranormal".

basically, there is a point between falling to deep sleep and coming out of deep sleep where the mind goes into some sort of a hallucination-phase. You see colors, the bed is shaking (that's happened to me often.), some thing sits on you....It's quite common.

It's quite amazing how most paranormal activity is created in the human mind. Note: religion.

IvanK

And people like me who have experienced sleep paralysis also have the same sort of experiences as those who believe they have been abducted by aliens. We just have a different, non-supernatural explanation for it.

Which leads me to the question, if the revelation about "knowing Jesus" is only obtained through certain kinds of experience, and if there might be a different, non-supernatural explanation for those experiences, why should one accept the one explanation and not the other?

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

beoba

I've always translated comments like that to "you'll believe Christianity when you decide to be gullible"

beoba

Hey cool, I'm a regular!