HallaK9

Hey all, and sorry if this has come up before.

One of the hardest things with Christianity (or any other religions supposing an omnimax deity) for me is to understand why an all powerful and all good God requires us to believe in him. What's the point?

I just for the life of me can't see what a god would have at stake in that, Pratchettian theology excluded. Surely he doesn't need it for his sake, what with being omnipotent and all; and if we suppose - tho I don't agree with this - that belief makes us better people, why not focus on that? What does it matter to him if I believe or not that he, reincarnated as a middle aged carpenter committed a suicide over a fruit tree dispute some 2000 odd years ago?

Now I can understand well why for a fellow human my believing what he believes would be important, but for a god?

Anyhoo, is there any theist argument for the necessity of belief?

Cheers all,

Antti

JP2

We've merely transferred our own distinctly human frailties and insecurities into the natures of the Gods we've created. The humans who have, over the course of history run into power of "God-like" proportions have, by and large, demanded worship and adulation. Humans have a need to feel loved, and to be held in high esteem - why should we expect anything less from an omniscient, omnipresent being?

Pyrrho

Belief is necessary because religion is all about controlling people. People want to control others, and religion is very good for this purpose. Obviously, you are right, an omnipotent, omniscient being would have no need of people believing (or doing) anything at all. Such a being would be in need of absolutely nothing at all. It is only beings that lack something that have needs. But religion is people imposing their wills on others. Think of the pope, for example, and consider where he would be if no one believed in Catholicism. But as things are, he is one of the most influential and powerful men in the world, and will be for life. How many other men can boast such power?

Theists, of course, come up with all sorts of convoluted arguments for their positions, and it is generally best if they present them for themselves. Otherwise, even an accurate representation will likely seem like a parody, as the arguments are convoluted and nonsensical, denying what is obviously true.

HallaK9

Thanks JP2 and Pyrrho, that's pretty much what I am inclined to think on my own too. Still, I would think that someone must've tried to answer this one before - seems to me it's an obvious thing to ask if we presuppose a deity with the Christian God's attributes.

So do we have any Christians or other theists here willing to give this one a shot?

Antti

Jamie_L

Well, one arguement I've heard is that God wants to surround himself with those who are "his kind of people" (my words). I.E., those that are morally good, love Him, etc. Other folks are people He just doesn't want around mucking things up in the kingdom of heaven.

Yet, for a critical unbeliever like me, this raises all sorts of questions. First among them: well, why not just make us all "his kind of people" to begin with?

Answer: Oh... Well, it's all about Free Will(TM), see. We have to freely choose to be "his kind of people."

Question: Why?

Answer: Well... Uh. Isn't that obvious? Who wants robot slaves in heaven?

Question: Well, he's just selecting the ones that are made in the "his kind of people" mold, right? Why not make just those people to begin with, skip making us other lamoids, avoid this whole selection process, and cut to the chase. What's the point of being omnipotent if you have to use this messy earthly existence to weed out the bad apples?

Answer: No, no, no. Free Will. We wouldn't have free will.

And here the discussion goes into an infinite recursion loop.

But that's the reason usually given, nevertheless. Belief is required to have a "relationship with God", and God only wants to fill the kingdom of heaven with people who "willingly develop a relationship with God".

*shrug*

Jamie

Biff the unclean

God doesn't require that you believe in him. In fact if he exists he has gone very far out of his way to make sure that you don't believe in him by wiping the "crime scene" clean of any of his fingerprints. After going to so much trouble to make it seem that he doesn't exist he would probably punish you for going against his will and believing that he did.
God never says that you should believe in him, he never says anything.
The only people who insist that you believe are those who make their living off of belief in God.
So intent are these folks on making money that they have put actual advertisements for their product on the money itself!!! "In God We Trust"
I'm sure other corporations would love to have their slogans on paper money too. "Drink Coca Cola" next to Lincoln on the fives. "Got a buck? You're in luck. McDonalds Happy Meals" on the singles. "Ford tough 4X4" on the hundreds.
But the God mongers have got the money advertising market wrapped up. In a way it's only appropriate because no one loves money as much as they do.