Steven Carr

King Arthur has written about my web page
<a href="http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm</a> which is always nice publicity.

Basically, it argues that the NT writers plagiarised the Old Testament when making up miracle stories about Jesus.

First of all, I'm curious to know his yes/no answer to this question Did the NT writers plagiarise the OT?

I also wrote that the Septuagint is rejected by Christians today. Perhaps this is wrong. Roughly how many million Christians think the Greek OT was divinely inspired and the Hebrew version not divinely inspired?

Roughly how many million Christians think the Hebrew version was divinely inspired and the Greek translation not divinely inspired?

Actually, I don't know the answer to these questions. Could somebody make an educated guess for me please?

King Arthur also makes much of my claim that p52 only has 2 complete consecutve words on it. Is this false? Does p52 have more than one place where there are 2 complete consecutive words?

King Arthure has taken a few points from my article, ignoring the vast majority. It is a cumulative case - plagiarism can not be shown with just one or two examples, so cutting out most of my examples appears to be a deliberate attempt to try to make my case look weaker that it is. But probably I have misjudged King Arthur.


KA ignored the biggest example of verbatim copying. One wonders why he chose 2 word phrases to quibble at while refusing to acknowledge the bigger phrases. But wondering will get me nowhere until he explains why he only chose the smaller examples. Speculation as to his motives is profitless.

For example, he quibbled at 'kai egeneto', about which I wrote 'When writing the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith also used 'and it came to pass' a lot. Here he was copying from the King James Bible , but we can see that the writer of Luke's Gospel copied in a very similar manner to Joseph Smith.' Does he think that Joseph Smith plagiaried the King James Bible? After all, 'it came to pass' is used a *lot* in the King James Bible, and by KA's logic this means that people who use it a lot can't be accused of plagiarism.

However, let me take a big phrase 'kai edoken auton te metri autou'.

I will give 500 pounds to any charity of King Arthur's choice, if he can find any book published before my web page was written, which contains the exact phrase 'and he gave him back to his mother.' obviously, works derived from Kings or Luke don't count here, or commentaries on the Bible.

Kosh

500 pounds of communion bread?

Steven Carr

As this is the literal flesh of Jesus, and there is no record in the NT of his being so obese, no.

Of course, this is just an argument from silence. Perhaps Jesus was a 500-pound guy.

It would have to be 500 pounds sterling.

Darkside_Spirit

Don't forget that he came into Jerusalem riding two donkeys, according to Matthew.

not a theist

If I'm not mistaken, the Eastern Orthodox churches accept the Septuagint as their "official" OT.

l-bow

Carr,

Aren't those considered by christians to be "forshadowings" of Jesus, such as Jonah in the belly of the beast for 3 days forshadowing Jesus in hell for 3 days?

FunkyRes

There are programs to help with crack addiction.

Sojourner553

Good site...

But you leave out there are also parallels between NT miracles and PAGAN myths. These examples on this site refer to Randel Helms book on the subject, GOSPEL FICTIONS:

IE,

(1) "At a wedding in Cana in Galilee, Jesus' mother informs Jesus:

"They have no wine left". [Jesus] answered, "Woman, what have I to do
with you? My hour is not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do
whatever he tells you." (John 2:3-4) Jesus commands them to fill some jars
with water and bring them to the steward who pronounces it as the best
wine given at the wedding.

Jesus' tone towards to his mothers sounds distant and harsh, when he replies,
"Woman, why have I to do with you?". Interesting this EXACT phrase appears
in a parallel miracle performed by the prophet Elijah in the Old Testament.
Here the miracle involves empty pitchers that are replenished with flour and
oil. A woman in need of food asks the prophet, "What have I to do with you."
(In the Greek Septuagint the phrase is identical--see III [1] Kings 17:18,
Septuagint) (Randel Helms, p 86)

Regarding the transformation of water into wine, this was a common miracle
in the hellenistic ancient world--whereby the god Dionysus (through the
priests/priestesses at his temples) would miraculously convert water
into wine..."

"

AND

(2) "Miracle of Commanding the Wind and Sea; Walking on Water

From the Psalms in the Old Testament, we are told how God (Jehovah)
had power over the wind and sea:

"At his command the storm-wind rose and lifted the waves high.
Carried up to heaven, plunged down to the depths, tossed to and from in
peril, they reeled and staggered like drunken men, and their seamanship
was all in vain. So they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he
brought them out of their distress. The storm sank to a murmur and the
waves of the sea were stilled. They were glad then that all was calm,
as he guided them to the harbor they desired."(Psalm 107:25-30)

Likewise, when Jesus and his disciples were aboard a boat on the Sea of
Galilee:

"A heavy squall came up and the waves broke over the boat until it
was all but swamped. Now he [Jesus] was in the stern asleep on a
cushion; they roused him and said, "Master, we are perishing! Do you not
care?" He awoke, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Hush! Be still!"
The wind dropped and there was a dead calm." (Mark 4:37-39)

Jesus showed power over the sea by walking on it! (See Matthew
14; Mark 6; John 6). The book of Job 9:8 states that God has this
power and "walks on the sea as on dry ground". The gospel of Matthew,
tells how the disciple Peter decided he wanted to try and walk on the
water too:

"Peter called to him: 'Lord, if it is you, tell me to come to you over
the water.' 'Come', said Jesus. Peter stepped down from the boat, and
walked over the water to Jesus. But when he saw the strength of the
gale he was seized with fear; and beginning to sink, he cried, 'Save me,
Lord'. Jesus at once reached out and caught hold of him, and said, 'Why
did you hesitate? How little faith you have!' They then climbed into
the boat; and the wind dropped. And the men in the boat fell at his feet,
exclaiming, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'" (Matthew 14:28-33)

This story (which appears only in Matthew) of Peter walking on the water
is similar to a Buddhist legend which was told by Buddhist missionaries
in Syria and Egypt as early as the second century B.C.E.:

A disciple decided to visit Buddha one evening, but,

"found that the ferry boat was missing from the bank of the river Aciravati.
In faithful trust in Buddha he stepped into the water and went as if on
dry land to the very middle of the stream. Then he came out of his contented
meditation on Buddha in which he had lost himself, and saw the waves and was
frightened, and his feet began to sink. But he forced himself to become
wrapt in his meditation again and by its power he reached the far bank
safely and reached his master." (quoted by Randel Helms on p 65, taken
from Rudolf Bultmann, THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (Philiadelphia: Westminister, 1971)
p 230.) (The Indian king Asoka, whose grandfather had met Alexander the
Great, boasted that he had sent Buddhist missionaries to the courts of
Antiochus of Syria, Ptolemy of Egypt, Antigonus of Macedonia, Magas of
Cyrene and Alexander of Epirus.)"

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT</a>

(or Section II, Chapter 5 from:
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

RyanS2

Sojourner, I'm shocked. How could you even imply that Christianity was even associated with paganism? For example, there are numerous contrasts between the Dionysus wine miracle and the Jesus wine miracle, but just because miracles are strikingly similar in details doesn't mean they are borrowed. For example, they may have both turned water into wine, but Dionysus was at his own wedding, Jesus wasn't at his own wedding. Further, Dionysus didn't turn water into wine, he turned empty jugs into jugs filled with wine. Don't you know that every single ancient writer had perfect memory, (so stories would always read exactly like another story), and the incurable ability to only write stories verbatum off of what they were based?

(It's a joke post if you've never read Christian rebuttles to the Dionysus miracle).

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: RyanS2 ]</p>

King Arthur

Geez, Steven, that was really dumb... I don't want to take your money, so I won't go looking through books to find it.

However, I'll just provide you with a couple of examples from the web instead (which, btw, are not related to Kings or Luke).


<a href="http://hal.lamar.edu/~msa/Activities/Lesson7.html" target="_blank">http://hal.lamar.edu/~msa/Activities/Lesson7.html</a>
But that one is religious, so I'll go one better for you.

<a href="http://merlin.alleg.edu/group/review/1995.html" target="_blank">http://merlin.alleg.edu/group/review/1995.html</a>
Now, I don't know when your webpage was written, so I hope this one doesn't meet the challenge. Even if it does, it'd probably be a great thing to give 500 pounds (what is that in Euros now?) to a charity organization if you've got it lying around spare so that you can make silly bets like that. Wonderful as a matter of fact.

Anyways, as you can see, even this phrase is common, just like all the other examples you give.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]</p>