excreationist

I was just wondering about armpit hair. This only appears around puberty and it doesn't seem to have much of a function. In fact, in modern times, many or most women and some men shave that hair away.
So do apes also get armpit hair at puberty? Is there any survival advantage to getting it at puberty (or at all)?
And is this really an example of good design? I mean in hollywood it is seen as beautiful to have no armpit hair.

Dr.GH

The general idea is that at puberty there is increased production of odor. Body hair in the armpit and pubic area broadcasts scent better. It also acts as a dry lubricant. It is also incidental to increased production of testosterone.

Humans have about the same follicle density as other apes, but the hairs are mostly finer and shed more rapidly.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]</p>

excreationist

So it helps broadcast body odor then...?
The evolution side of things sounds ok, but what about intelligent design...
It seems God created arm-pit hair so that stinky body odor could be broadcast around... and yet people pervert this by masking this scent with deodorants. They are questioning God's wisdom of giving us body odor and a way of broadcasting it (armpit hair).
I see that armpit hair also acts as a dry lubricant but it doesn't seem that important since children and many men and women who do sports don't seem to have much trouble with armpit lubrication.

BLoggins02

IMHO, this is not a good argument against intelligent design. One could argue that the body odor serves its purpose for attracting a mate; the only reason we think it smells bad is because we are socially conditioned to do so.

cricket

Nuh-uh. Some adults have it too.

excreationist

cricket:
I meant that people begin having armpit hair at puberty... unlike things like fingernails which we start having much earlier in life.

BLoggins02:
I'm addressing Christians who believe in intelligent design actually. So there would have to be compelling reasons for the Christian God to make adult humans, the focus of his creation, go smelly after a while if they don't wash or wear perfume or deodorant. The Bible seems to be against sweat and dirtiness and promotes sweetly-scented perfume and washing. So it seems to view natural body odor as a bad thing. And in the Bible women attract men through things like perfume, not their natural, unmasked body odor. And the Bible usually involves marriage (or having sex slaves) - it isn't about attracting "mates". In the Bible things like "social conditioning" don't really apply - I mean Adam and Eve knew they were naked because they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil - they weren't raised to fear nakedness.

Oolon Colluphid

Personally, as a collector of crap design examples, it doesn't seem a poor design feature. However, as ex-creationist rightly points out, what it is is incongruous with much that the bible teaches.

So we could probably work it up into an odd feature in relation tobiblical teaching , rather than being incompatible with an intelligent designer per se. Anyone know of some good biblical refs to do with the importance of washing?

Cheers, Oolon

Dr.GH

A good argument can be made for washing, and aplying oils. For example, this reduces the number of ectomorphic parasites and suppresses skin fungus.

There is no point to be made here aginst either design or Biblical literalism. However, we H. sap's share these features (secondary sex characteristics) to a greater degree with other primates than we do with non-primates. And, we H. sap's share these features to a greater degree with other mammals than we do with non-mammals.

That's evolution.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Dr.GH ]</p>

excreationist

Which is it then? Does adult body odor attract mates or not? In the Bible washing and perfumes are used to attract mates. i.e. *eliminating* adult body odor.

Some Bible verses about perfume and attracting mates:
Ruth 3:3a - "Wash and perfume yourself..." (advice to Ruth about attracting Boaz)

Song of Solomon 1:3 - "Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you!"

Proverbs 7:17 - "I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes and cinnamon." (about an adultress)

Verses about perfume being enjoyable:
Proverbs 27:9a - "Perfume and incense bring joy to the heart..."

Psalm 45:7b-8 "...God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;"

Verses about pleasant smells:
Genesis 27:27b - "...When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said, 'Ah, the smell of my son is like the smell of a field that the Lord has blessed.'"

i.e. fresh-smelling.

Verses about holy perfumes and washing:
Exodus 30:1,7-8 - "Make an altar of acacia wood for burning incense...Aaron must burn fragrant incense on the altar every morning when he tends the lamps. He must burn incense again when he lights the lamps at twilight so incense will burn regularly before the Lord for the generations to come."

Exodus 30:20-21 "Whenever they enter the Tent of Meeting, they shall wash with water so that they will not die. Also, when they approach the altar to minister by presenting an offering made to the Lord by fire, they shall wash their hands and feet so that they will not die. This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descendants for the generations to come."

Washing was mostly about washing people's hands and feet. I guess that is a start though.

Exodus 30:23-25,33 - "Take the following fine spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much (that is, 250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon, 250 shekels of fragrant cane, 500 shekels of cassia - all according to the sanctuary shekel - and a hin of olive oil. Make these into a sacred anointing oil, a fragrant blend, the work of a perfumer. It will be the sacred anointing oil....Whoever makes perfume like it and whoever puts it on anyone other than a priest must be cut off from his people.' "

So oils used for annointing might be good for your health, but only the priests (and kings?) can use it.

Exodus 30:34-38 - "Take fragrant spices-gum resin, onycha and galbanum-and pure frankincense, all in equal amounts, and make a fragrant blend of incense, the work of a perfumer. It is to be salted and pure and sacred. Grind some of it to powder and place it in front of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, where I will meet with you. It shall be most holy to you. Do not make any incense with this formula for yourselves; consider it holy to the Lord. Whoever makes any like it to enjoy its fragrance must be cut off from his people."

So basically perfume is said to be good a lot in the Bible - it was also given as a gift to Jesus (frankincense and myrrh - and when his feet were perfumed). I don't know of any verse which says that people smell attractive without the help of some kind of perfume being involved.

More later...

SmashingIdols

Actually, why are we sure the strong smells are to attract the opposite sex?

They could be tribal markers, to differentiate members of different tribes. This would have played a greater role in pre-language era of our development. You would know the smell of your group. You could smell the adults of another group easily.

The part with the children makes sense too - most primitive societies will capture the children and raise them if they have not reached puberty, even though the adult women and men could all be killed.

Scent markers methinks. Primitive identification system. Says "evolution" all over it.

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]</p>