jojo-sa

DON

About Jihad read the other web site i posetd earlier this will answer your questions on it. Seem to me ibn warraq should read it too.

You always quoting ibn waraq. Did you read the site I sent before?

You post heaps of things, lets do one point at a time. If you read jojo'sa creationism thread you will see thats exactly what they requested of me. One point at a time ok.

I just wonder is ibn waraq the only book you read on Islam???

Must say though that at least you attack the system directly ,though its indrectly since you quote someone else, this is good and is really appreciated by me.

ok

so i will handle on point at a time. from your post.


[3:85]
85. And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam(submission to God),
it will never be accepted of him, and in the
Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

Well nothing to explain here. Quite clear there is one God and all who reject God will be losers in the end.

The question about one God is for another topic. Is there a God? ,however for those who believe in God will certainly agree that one has to submit to
or You lose.

[5:11]
O you who believe! Remember the Favour of Allah unto you when some people desired (made a plan) to stretch out their hands against you, but (Allah) withheld their hands from you. So fear Allah. And in Allah let believers put their trust.


dont see how this relates.

[9:28]
O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise

For sure they impure in there thinking concerning God. (yet again belief in God is in another topic)


Just one point on Jihad .

[22:39]
39. Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbelievers), who are fighting them, (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory

this vesre was only revealed after the prophet went to medina and set up a state there. before this no one was allowed to fight the non believers. and it was also a matter of pure self defense.

Look up on history you will see that while the muslims were in mecca the were tortured , killed violated in many ways. and not once did muslims fight back.

even after establishing a state after being driven out of there homeland for saying there is only one GOD, the still did not attack Mecca. Look at history You will see the battle of Badr the 1st battle was not in mecca . The only defened themselves against the Quaraish who marched out to attack them at medina. so even after setting up a state and having power they did not declare war on the oppressors from mecca.


Mr.Don read that site i Posted . look at the history.

Another thing sort of off the point and on the point.

Befor 632 ad the romans and persian were big power always fighting each other. they did nnot really bother about the stupid arabs tribes. because they served no hindrance to them.

When the arabs united under Islam, those two powers noted them and attacked them too.

so the arabs fought back, within 10 years or so both empires were gone..

how could the arabs destroy such powers with fighting? were they super human fighters?

no. they conquered them because as sson as those people saw what Islam offered they became muslim themselves and in this way assited the end of those powers.

REad up on history. and Mr DON please read that site.

Study investigate from all angles (read up on everything, science,bio,astronomy,hinduism,budhha, christian,history, islam etc...)certainly that is what you claim you do.

dont be trapped in a paradigm.

Leesifer

Alli,

I totally agree with you. The brothers of one of the muslims held in Cuba were interviewed on National TV and were saying that he must have been brainwashed, etc. However, it has since been reported that he was a member of a gang in his home town using guns and other weapons.

It makes me sick! Leave them where they are!

DMB

I noted that in the wake of the events of 11th September a number of prominent muslims signed a letter to The Times to this effect. What was interesting to me was that some of the same people had supported the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

Ibn Warraq is a person, not a book. He was brought up in a muslim family and is a scholar who has written many things. You can see some of his articles on <a href="http://www.secularislam.org/" target="_blank">this site</a>

It is naive to suppose that people converted to islam without force (or to xianity, for that matter). Obviously, some must have done, but given the disadvantages to non-believers under islam and the absolute intolerance of atheism, it isn't a real choice.

-DM-

I don't have questions. So far as I am concerned, that web site insofar as it supports your viewpoint is propaganda offered in an attempt to soften the reality of what the Quran itself says. After all, liberal Muslims undoubtedly dislike being associated in the minds of non-Muslims with the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

Chances are he already has. Your suggestion is as if he or I would suggest that you should read what the <a href="http://www.golshan.com/rationalthinking/index.htm" target="_blank">Rational Thinking</a> website has to say about the Quran and Islam.

And you are always referencing some site which supports your view of Islam and Jihad, a view which I find inconsistent with the Quran itself, your view seeming to me to be a watered-down version of Islam (not unlike liberal Christianity being a watered-down version of Christianity).

If you mean did I read the document which you referenced on <a href="http://www.understanding-islam.com," target="_blank">www.understanding-islam.com,</a> no I didn't. When I attempt to access it I get: "Forbidden. You don't have permission to access Apache/1.3.20 Server at <a href="http://www.understanding-islam.com" target="_blank">www.understanding-islam.com</a> Port 80"

...

You do the same. Try to understand where it is that Osama Bin Laden and others like him get their ideas. You may not agree with his ideas, but it should not be difficult at all for you to see that they find justification for their actions in the Quran just as Christians did in the Bible when they engaged in the Crusades, the Inquisition, the burning of witches, the keeping of slaves.

...

Heed your own advice

Where did I make that claim?

My experience seems to indicate that people who say such things are often those most in need of heeding their own advice.

--Don--

jojo-sa

it seems the site is down.
there are other places to find Islamic view on jihad. look it up . because for me to pass judgement or undertand the atheist way i have to ask the atheist. in the same way i say to you if you want to understnad islam study it from islamic sources.

You can see on this site I ask why are atheist atheist. I dont ask bin laden or some other muslim that question.

For sure you have a point. Its like the guy who studied a little medicine is much more dangerous than the guy who knows nothing. Dont you be one of those who reads a little and from the wrong sources and become a "bin laden " for your course based on too little information.

You have for sure passed judgement on the Quran and Islam. I just wonder based on what information??

You say the reality of what the Quran says. Do you really know the reality.Where did you study it? for how long? under what supervision?

About the reality you posted.

The word is auliyah( roughly transalted it is friend)
what is friend anyway.

point is i will never take and infidel who drinks alcohol and eats pork , one who says it ok to have sex before marriage, as someone who is fit enough to rear my kid or kids.

This person cannot be my auliyah .This is also what those verses refer too.

To reverse question will you let me rasie your kid and educate your kid in the ways of islam???
So i find nothing wrong with the Quran saying hey make sure you select the corect person to be your auliyah..

Please quote me some verses out of the Quran that you found on your own that you think is the reality of the Quran in the way you see it, so i can look at it and see if you have a point.

and for sure u have a point when you say i might be in aparadigm too. soo please take up my request and post some things for me to look into.


Iqraq that is the answer

peace

lpetrich

Why is the Koran supposed to be such a difficult-to-understand book? Was it written in some secret code or something like that?

And I find it extremely stupid that that the Ruler of the Universe (yes, this huge Universe) saw fit to reveal his latest and greatest revelation only to some obscure Arab merchant. It's almost as absurd as the proposition that the Ruler of the Universe had to beget Himself in the person of the son of some Roman-Empire carpenter's girlfriend.

If I was the Ruler of the Universe, and I wanted to deliver a revelation, I'd deliver it in absolutely unambiguous terms to every human being who ever lived. It would be like I was standing right next to everybody who ever lived. And I'd speak everybody's language fluently (Allah only speaks Classical Arabic, it seems).

Orpheous99

Yet more proof that theism is complete and utter nonsense.

jojo-sa

The prob is not that the Quran is hard to understand its more the fact that you are too lazy to read up.


Secondly how could someone take your idea of how God should reveal when you cant even understand the Quran.. what else can you not understand????

Iqraq ( read) the answer to all

peace

sighhswolf

You seem to be concerned and genuine in your fear and loathing of the actions of "extremeists".
I commend you for your stance.
But, you must be reading and studing another version of Qur'an.
Your prophet was by all standards of morality and ethics everywhere, not just within the confines
or christian thought, a self absorbed, murdering
bigoted individual.
He stated his charge/mission and that was to bring the entire world to Islam.
His method was either convert or die, very simple.

To discuss and debate the meaning of "jihad" is irrelevent.

The prophet specifically admonished his followers to kill and destroy the infidels wherever they may be.
You say that muslims cannot make the civilians/non
combatants a target during war.
Yet your prophet was well known for his admonitions to his warriors to take the women of the fallen foes, and make them sexual slaves.

I dont think it would serve this discussion to outline all of the atrocities of Muslims who have done these deeds with the blessings of the prophet.

Your concern is admirable, but you cannot gloss
over the history of Islam and it's prophet, with
explanations and apologies.
The history is self evident, and the actions of those involved are recorded.
Wolf

jojo-sa

Prove this show me some quotes. Tell me what exactly you studied that brought you to this conclusion? what are your sources? how long did you study ? who were your mentors?

It is easy to make statements proving it is some thing else.

This is for the topic of Islam and Slavery? which can be discussed if you like. for now i will say that Yes Islam allowed prisoners of war(who your right hand posess) to be treated in certain ways. one of them being we should feed them and treat them with respect.

as for treason death is the penalty This was the case of the jews who betrayed there trust and 700 or so were executed since the jews switched sides in the middle of a battle. only men were executed an woman and kids were then prisoners of war(those who your right hand posess) so how where they to be treated? this i can discuss further.


I think it is your duty to point out those things seeing you make these conclusion.

Please show me and enlighten me with your knowledge.

This way we could learn and discover even more.

Iqraq (read) the answer to all

peace