Alan N

Rom 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,...

Restrain it's effects? Please explain.

Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

Paul clearly understood that the result of his faith and obedience, which to him meant upholding the law, would be perfection:

Rom 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

I thought my pinata analogy was quite profound (It's the only kind of party we used to have when I was a kid). You know Theophilus, I am a fresh off the press(1 1/2 years) deconvert from Christianity, and frankly struggle with this decision almost daily. It's like pulling an apparent loose thread from the sleeve of your shirt...as you pull, you realize that the thread runs throughout it, and that by pulling so hard, your liable to ruin the shirt. Sometimes, I have tried in similar fashion (too hard) to pull this thread of Christianity from my life in attempt to distance myself from the painful deconversion. My guess (opinion) is that most deconverts here have similarly intense emotional scars, and lash out in thier unique fashion due to this. There are countless emotionally aseptic posts and replies and posted on this board. I would venture a guess that many of them simply veil this profound pain, diguised of course in 'logic'.

I participate on this board admittedly in part as a 'grieving' of sorts, to place my emotions on the public domain, for confirmation, sure, but also for the testing of my thoughts. That's why the childish analogies...because I've been hurt...my apologies.

Sorry for the personal purge...

Jobar

Hello Alan, and welcome. The purging you speak of is a very common thing around here; we have a forum pretty much dedicated to it, our Secular Lifestyles forum.

We accept that there is lots of emotional turmoil behind some of the posts here, but we do try to keep this forum (and our other more philosophical forums) as calm as possible.

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Theophilus:
Yes, it [the universe] is perfect.
It is perfectly suited to the purpose for which it was created.


It is quite clear that corruption (the correct term) has come into the created order because of sin. In J/C theology, we call this "the fall."

The function of the law is to expose sin, restrain its effects, and lead men to Christ. It is not to produce perfection.

Don't you see just how self-contradictory, indeed downright schizophrenic, all that is? If God created a perfect universe, why is it now imperfect?

If you say that the universe is perfect, you must admit that sin, evil, and suffering are all part of God's design; if you say it's imperfect, you must question God's perfection and infallibility. (Or existence, of course.)

I remind you that it's believers, not atheists, who usually harp on sin and evil in the world; I know atheists here who are of the opinion that 'evil' is an entirely subjective concept. The disconnect between perfect universe/fallen universe is so profound that it is perhaps the most common cause of people questioning their faith, in the form of the PoE.

bd-from-kg

theophilus:

You say:

Before proceeding, let�s be sure that we�re on the same page. First, you surely aren�t claiming that the world (i.e., the universe) is perfectly round, or perfectly beautiful. The kind of perfection you�re talking about is moral perfection. Correct so far?

Now the original question was �What kind of world would a perfect God create?� And your answer, I gather, is �A world that perfectly accomplishes His purpose.� This makes sense if the whole of what you mean in calling God �(morally) perfect� is that He perfectly accomplishes His purposes. If you meant more than that � if being �morally perfect� meant more than �perfectly accomplishing God�s purpose� � then the fact that the world does so would not be sufficient to show that it�s morally perfect.

Are you still with me? If not, where have I gone wrong in my reasoning?

Wyrdsmyth

and...

You know what would really complete this whole act? A line of dancing girls singing:

"Do the theological shuffle, one, two, three...
For those who don't know it, theophilus will lead!
Shuffle them terms,
and move them around,
Juggle them arguments,
who cares if they're sound.

"Everybody, now! All together!

"Do the theological shuffle, one two, three...
For those who don't know it, theophilus will lead!!!"

Goober

Wyrdsmyth: :notworthy

Theophilus: Please explain the purpose for which the universe was created. And don't give us the 'mysterious plan' bullshit, that is not an answer.

And while you are dancing the theological shuffle, please reconcile this statement with free will:

Wyz_sub10

It has been corrupted, therefore it is no longer perfect. If it is, than it certainly has not been corrupted.

If the fall was part of the plan, then how was this something in need of a remedy? This makes no sense.

If it is to be restored to perfection, then it is imperfect now.

Spenser

Theophilus always seems to run when he has no place else left to hide. The contradictions in theistic thinking are overly obvious if you just take a step back and look...

theophilus

Aren't you being unnecessaarily obtuse?

First, a "perfect" God would not "need" anything, else he would not be perfect (complete). Nor would he "need" a purpose-giver; same reason.

The only question is "would a perfect God be able to create a world that is perfectly suited for his purpose." The answer is self-evidently yes.

theophilus

Silly boy.

theophilus