Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wyrdsmyth · 07-16-2003, 05:10 AM

SOCRATES: What sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect pottter?

WYRDSMYTH: That's easy, Socrates. You'd get a pot, perfectly made and without flaws.

SOCRATES: And what sort of tool would you get, if it were made by a perfect blacksmith?

WYRDSMYTH: Why, Socrates, I suppose you would get a perfect tool.

SOCRATES: And what sort of music would you get if it were played by a perfect musician?

WYRDSMYTH: Perfect music. But really, Socrates, these are questions even a child could answer.

MENO: [standing nearby]: Indeed!

PROTAGORAS: [also, standing by, snorts]: Why don't you get to the point, Socrates!

SOCRATES: You are right, my questions are very simple. But that is for my own benefit, as I am a simple man and like to progress slowly and surely. But now I will ask a much more difficult question, since you implore it of me. What sort of world would you get if it were made by a perfect god?

Jobar · 07-16-2003, 06:02 AM

Wyrdsmyth, do me a favor- take your little gem of an argument here to the "Proof God doesn't exist????" thread, and drop it (preferably from a great height) on SignOfTheCross.

rainbow walking · 07-16-2003, 06:15 AM

SOCRATES: What sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect pottter?

WYRDSMYTH: That's easy, Socrates. You'd get a pot, perfectly made and without flaws.

SOCRATES: And what sort of tool would you get, if it were made by a perfect blacksmith?

WYRDSMYTH: Why, Socrates, I suppose you would get a perfect tool.

SOCRATES: And what sort of music would you get if it were played by a perfect musician?

WYRDSMYTH: Perfect music. But really, Socrates, these are questions even a child could answer.

MENO: [standing nearby]: Indeed!

PROTAGORAS: [also, standing by, snorts]: Why don't you get to the point, Socrates!

SOCRATES: You are right, my questions are very simple. But that is for my own benefit, as I am a simple man and like to progress slowly and surely. But now I will ask a much more difficult question, since you implore it of me. What sort of world would you get if it were made by a perfect god?

RW INTERJECTS: Why, you'd get a perfect world that perfectly behaves in perfect accordance to perfect properties...what else?

SOCRATES: Perhaps, and what sort of man would you get from such a perfect world?

MENO: Hmph...!

RW: I would suggest you'd get perfectly simple men like yourself, kind sir, and perfectly dubious fellows like Meno, and perfectly stupid men, and perfectly fierce men and perfect cowards as well...all capable of asking perfectly reasonable questions.

PROTAGORAS: Ha!

Wyrdsmyth · 07-16-2003, 07:50 AM

and perfect equivocation from 'rainbow walking'?

Normal · 07-16-2003, 07:58 AM

SOCRATES: You are right, my questions are very simple. But that is for my own benefit, as I am a simple man and like to progress slowly and surely. But now I will ask a much more difficult question, since you implore it of me. What sort of world would you get if it were made by a perfect god?

Normal: A perfect world! But what is a perfect world, Socrates?

Socrates: One in which this is no unnecessary evil!

Normal: And who is to decide what is necessary and what unnecessary?

Socrates: I think I can determine that just fine, Normal.

Normal: By what standard do you measure what is unnecessary?

Socrates: My own, of course.

Normal: But if everyone measured what is unnecessary by their own standard, wouldn't one man's unnecessary be another's necessary? Or one man's necessary another's unnecessary?

Socrates: That seems to follow

Normal: Then each man's idea of a perfect world is an imperfect world to another man! Only one with the authority to know perfection independant of all man's interpretations could make that judgement.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-16-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Normal: And who is to decide what is necessary and what unnecessary?

Socrates: I think I can determine that just fine, Normal.

Normal: By what standard do you measure what is unnecessary?

Socrates: My own, of course.

Normal: But if everyone measured what is unnecessary by their own standard, wouldn't one man's unnecessary be another's necessary? Or one man's necessary another's unnecessary?

Socrates: That seems to follow

Jack: No, it doesn't!

Socrates: Why not?

Jack: We're all perfect creations, according to J/C definitions of "perfect", right? So we should all be perfectly altruistic, and in perfect agreement about what is the most perfect course of action for society as a whole.

Normal · 07-16-2003, 08:42 AM

Jack: We're all perfect creations, according to J/C definitions of "perfect", right? So we should all be perfectly altruistic, and in perfect agreement about what is the most perfect course of action for society as a whole.

Socrates: So we are all perfect creations?

Jack: Yes

Socrates: How do you know we are perfect creations?

Jack: From the J-C teachings.

Socrates: So you do not know why we are perfect, only that we are perfect?

Jack: Yes

Socrates: Well then Jack, if you do not know why we are perfect, you are certainly unjustified in saying that we are imperfect because of our disagreements.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-16-2003, 09:01 AM

Jack: It is reasonable to assume that we should be perfect, because we were supposedly created by a perfect creator. After all, what sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect potter?

[loop back to top of thread]

Normal · 07-16-2003, 09:05 AM

Jack: It is reasonable to assume that we should be perfect, because we were supposedly created by a perfect creator. After all, what sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect potter?

Socrates: So if we assume we are a perfect creation, does that give us a reason as to why we are perfect?

Normal: Indeed not, Socrates.

Socrates: If we don't have a reason about why we are perfect, we cannot say we are perfect because of this or because of that?

Normal: Correct

Socrates: And if we cannot say we are perfect because of this or because of that, we cannot say we are imperfect because of this or because of that?

Normal: That seems to follow

Socrates: So was Jake unjustified in saying we are imperfect because of our disagreements?

Normal: He was

rainbow walking · 07-16-2003, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyrdsmyth
and perfect equivocation from 'rainbow walking'?

SOCRATES: Indeed, then all perfect things are not perfectly acceptable?

RW: And this would be perfectly understandable.

07-16-2003, 05:10 AM	#1
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	The Spartan barbs of Wyrdsmyth SOCRATES: What sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect pottter? WYRDSMYTH: That's easy, Socrates. You'd get a pot, perfectly made and without flaws. SOCRATES: And what sort of tool would you get, if it were made by a perfect blacksmith? WYRDSMYTH: Why, Socrates, I suppose you would get a perfect tool. SOCRATES: And what sort of music would you get if it were played by a perfect musician? WYRDSMYTH: Perfect music. But really, Socrates, these are questions even a child could answer. MENO: [standing nearby]: Indeed! PROTAGORAS: [also, standing by, snorts]: Why don't you get to the point, Socrates! SOCRATES: You are right, my questions are very simple. But that is for my own benefit, as I am a simple man and like to progress slowly and surely. But now I will ask a much more difficult question, since you implore it of me. What sort of world would you get if it were made by a perfect god?

07-16-2003, 06:15 AM	#3
rainbow walking Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Erewhon Posts: 2,608	Re: The Spartan barbs of Wyrdsmyth SOCRATES: What sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect pottter? WYRDSMYTH: That's easy, Socrates. You'd get a pot, perfectly made and without flaws. SOCRATES: And what sort of tool would you get, if it were made by a perfect blacksmith? WYRDSMYTH: Why, Socrates, I suppose you would get a perfect tool. SOCRATES: And what sort of music would you get if it were played by a perfect musician? WYRDSMYTH: Perfect music. But really, Socrates, these are questions even a child could answer. MENO: [standing nearby]: Indeed! PROTAGORAS: [also, standing by, snorts]: Why don't you get to the point, Socrates! SOCRATES: You are right, my questions are very simple. But that is for my own benefit, as I am a simple man and like to progress slowly and surely. But now I will ask a much more difficult question, since you implore it of me. What sort of world would you get if it were made by a perfect god? RW INTERJECTS: Why, you'd get a perfect world that perfectly behaves in perfect accordance to perfect properties...what else? SOCRATES: Perhaps, and what sort of man would you get from such a perfect world? MENO: Hmph...! RW: I would suggest you'd get perfectly simple men like yourself, kind sir, and perfectly dubious fellows like Meno, and perfectly stupid men, and perfectly fierce men and perfect cowards as well...all capable of asking perfectly reasonable questions. PROTAGORAS: Ha!

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07-16-2003, 06:02 AM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Wyrdsmyth, do me a favor- take your little gem of an argument here to the "Proof God doesn't exist????" thread, and drop it (preferably from a great height) on SignOfTheCross.

07-16-2003, 07:50 AM	#4
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	and perfect equivocation from 'rainbow walking'?

07-16-2003, 07:58 AM	#5
Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 639	SOCRATES: You are right, my questions are very simple. But that is for my own benefit, as I am a simple man and like to progress slowly and surely. But now I will ask a much more difficult question, since you implore it of me. What sort of world would you get if it were made by a perfect god? Normal: A perfect world! But what is a perfect world, Socrates? Socrates: One in which this is no unnecessary evil! Normal: And who is to decide what is necessary and what unnecessary? Socrates: I think I can determine that just fine, Normal. Normal: By what standard do you measure what is unnecessary? Socrates: My own, of course. Normal: But if everyone measured what is unnecessary by their own standard, wouldn't one man's unnecessary be another's necessary? Or one man's necessary another's unnecessary? Socrates: That seems to follow Normal: Then each man's idea of a perfect world is an imperfect world to another man! Only one with the authority to know perfection independant of all man's interpretations could make that judgement.

07-16-2003, 08:42 AM	#7
Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 639	Jack: We're all perfect creations, according to J/C definitions of "perfect", right? So we should all be perfectly altruistic, and in perfect agreement about what is the most perfect course of action for society as a whole. Socrates: So we are all perfect creations? Jack: Yes Socrates: How do you know we are perfect creations? Jack: From the J-C teachings. Socrates: So you do not know why we are perfect, only that we are perfect? Jack: Yes Socrates: Well then Jack, if you do not know why we are perfect, you are certainly unjustified in saying that we are imperfect because of our disagreements.

07-16-2003, 09:01 AM	#8
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Jack: It is reasonable to assume that we should be perfect, because we were supposedly created by a perfect creator. After all, what sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect potter? [loop back to top of thread]

07-16-2003, 09:05 AM	#9
Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 639	Jack: It is reasonable to assume that we should be perfect, because we were supposedly created by a perfect creator. After all, what sort of pot would you get if it were made by a perfect potter? Socrates: So if we assume we are a perfect creation, does that give us a reason as to why we are perfect? Normal: Indeed not, Socrates. Socrates: If we don't have a reason about why we are perfect, we cannot say we are perfect because of this or because of that? Normal: Correct Socrates: And if we cannot say we are perfect because of this or because of that, we cannot say we are imperfect because of this or because of that? Normal: That seems to follow Socrates: So was Jake unjustified in saying we are imperfect because of our disagreements? Normal: He was

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