Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fried beef sandwich · 02-09-2003, 05:36 PM

Did anyone catch this? It was posted on CNN, but as you might expect, it was sort of buried.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/02....ap/index.html

crazyfingers · 02-09-2003, 05:43 PM

If this was honest, they should also withhold federal funds to schools that actively encourage prayer or those that have prayers over the loud speaker system, etc... But that really isn't the Bush admin's point is it?

The don't want a fair system. They want as much religion as they can get into the schools.

Mageth · 02-09-2003, 05:47 PM

Well, I agree that schools shouldn't interfere with students' religious activities such as prayer as long as they're not disruptive.

From the article:

In one significant example, teachers are permitted to meet with each other for "prayer or Bible study" before school or after lunch -- provided they make clear they are not acting in their "official capacities."

This could run into the "equal access" wall - teachers should then also be allowed to meet before school or after lunch for virtually any other (legal) religious or non-religious purposes. Just wait 'til some xians get wind of a group of Wiccan teachers meeting on campus before school.

Also, students taking part in assemblies and graduation may not be restricted in expressing religion as long as they were chosen as speakers through "neutral, evenhanded criteria." To avoid controversy, schools may issue disclaimers clarifying that such speech does not represent the school.

I have a problem with this, and I think SCOTUS may as well, based on prior decisions such as Doe vs. Santa Fe. It's still a school-sponsored event and a captive audience, no matter how you sugar-coat it.

Mageth · 02-09-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyfingers
If this was honest, they should also withhold federal funds to schools that actively encourage prayer or those that have prayers over the loud speaker system, etc... But that really isn't the Bush admin's point is it?

The don't want a fair system. They want as much religion as they can get into the schools.

I agree with your sentiment, and I started to post something along the same lines, but re-reading the article, I couldn't conclude that they exclude witholding federal funds under such circumstances.

crazyfingers · 02-09-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

I have a problem with this, and I think SCOTUS may as well, based on prior decisions such as Doe vs. Santa Fe. It's still a school-sponsored event and a captive audience, no matter how you sugar-coat it.

I agree.

GaryP · 02-10-2003, 04:47 AM

Teachers have the right to pray or worship when not in the classroom now. The guidelines adopted in 1995 or so stated as much and said that faculty could meet in the teacher's lounge or some other private place like an unused classroom.

I can foresee this part of the directive being pushed by evangelical teachers. Perhaps meeting in a busy hallway and audibly praising Jesus while the kids are going back to class after lunch.

Tat · 02-10-2003, 06:18 PM

Fresh from the department of education site:
Prayer Guidance

Number of times the bible is used as an example: 3
Number of times another religious document is used: 0.

Quite explicitly, the punishment is for restricting the right to pray, not for unlawfully pushing religion.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gary P
can foresee this part of the directive being pushed by evangelical teachers. Perhaps meeting in a busy hallway and audibly praising Jesus while the kids are going back to class after lunch.

This is my prediction as well, I draw your attention to a passage near the end:

Quote:

Student speakers at student assemblies and extracurricular activities such as sporting events may not be selected on a basis that either favors or disfavors religious speech. Where student speakers are selected on the basis of genuinely neutral, evenhanded criteria and retain primary control over the content of their expression, that expression is not attributable to the school and therefore may not be restricted because of its religious (or anti-religious) content.

So its ok to have your local pastor (Bible Jim and the Beautiful Savior Traveling Baptism Show (inc.)) come and proselytize, so long as s/he was choosen as a "community leader" not a pastor particularly.

Little attention is paid throughout to the seperation of church and state. The explicit goal is the protection of religious practice. Lip service is paid to the balence between the two, but it is de factohanding schools to monotheistic, mainstream religion.

Mageth · 02-12-2003, 08:58 AM

So its ok to have your local pastor (Bible Jim and the Beautiful Savior Traveling Baptism Show (inc.)) come and proselytize, so long as s/he was choosen as a "community leader" not a pastor particularly.

That bit you posted referred to "student speakers". I assume that it's referring to "speakers that are students", not non-students brought in as speakers. Am I missing something?

BibleBelted · 02-12-2003, 11:30 AM

Is this really a big deal? It looks more like your standard political grandstanding of coming out forcefully against something that isn't happening in the first place.

Students are already allowed to pray anywhere it isn't disruptive - how, in fact, could anybody stop them if they wanted to?

Let's not get baited into over-reaction.

Toto · 02-12-2003, 01:21 PM

I think the point is that if losing federal funding is on the line, schools will bend over backward to avoid even the appearance of anti-prayer regulations. Especially if they might have federal agents hounding them, instead of just getting a polite letter from an attorney threatening a lawsuit.

02-09-2003, 05:36 PM	#1
fried beef sandwich Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,156	Schools risk funding if they bar prayers (CNN) Did anyone catch this? It was posted on CNN, but as you might expect, it was sort of buried. http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/02....ap/index.html

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02-09-2003, 05:43 PM	#2
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	If this was honest, they should also withhold federal funds to schools that actively encourage prayer or those that have prayers over the loud speaker system, etc... But that really isn't the Bush admin's point is it? The don't want a fair system. They want as much religion as they can get into the schools.

02-09-2003, 05:47 PM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Well, I agree that schools shouldn't interfere with students' religious activities such as prayer as long as they're not disruptive. From the article: In one significant example, teachers are permitted to meet with each other for "prayer or Bible study" before school or after lunch -- provided they make clear they are not acting in their "official capacities." This could run into the "equal access" wall - teachers should then also be allowed to meet before school or after lunch for virtually any other (legal) religious or non-religious purposes. Just wait 'til some xians get wind of a group of Wiccan teachers meeting on campus before school. Also, students taking part in assemblies and graduation may not be restricted in expressing religion as long as they were chosen as speakers through "neutral, evenhanded criteria." To avoid controversy, schools may issue disclaimers clarifying that such speech does not represent the school. I have a problem with this, and I think SCOTUS may as well, based on prior decisions such as Doe vs. Santa Fe. It's still a school-sponsored event and a captive audience, no matter how you sugar-coat it.

02-10-2003, 04:47 AM	#6
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Teachers have the right to pray or worship when not in the classroom now. The guidelines adopted in 1995 or so stated as much and said that faculty could meet in the teacher's lounge or some other private place like an unused classroom. I can foresee this part of the directive being pushed by evangelical teachers. Perhaps meeting in a busy hallway and audibly praising Jesus while the kids are going back to class after lunch.

02-12-2003, 08:58 AM	#8
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So its ok to have your local pastor (Bible Jim and the Beautiful Savior Traveling Baptism Show (inc.)) come and proselytize, so long as s/he was choosen as a "community leader" not a pastor particularly. That bit you posted referred to "student speakers". I assume that it's referring to "speakers that are students", not non-students brought in as speakers. Am I missing something?

02-12-2003, 11:30 AM	#9
BibleBelted Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 891	Is this really a big deal? It looks more like your standard political grandstanding of coming out forcefully against something that isn't happening in the first place. Students are already allowed to pray anywhere it isn't disruptive - how, in fact, could anybody stop them if they wanted to? Let's not get baited into over-reaction.

02-12-2003, 01:21 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think the point is that if losing federal funding is on the line, schools will bend over backward to avoid even the appearance of anti-prayer regulations. Especially if they might have federal agents hounding them, instead of just getting a polite letter from an attorney threatening a lawsuit.

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