kwigibo

"A vampire...yeah, that could explain a lot...well you probably do think I drink blood, as a regular participant in communion at church... "

Well i made fun of transubstantiation (sp?) already once on this BB today, so i'm even less likely to acuse u of drinking blood, the worst this could explain is alcohol abuse, but doctors say u should drink a glass of red wine everyday, u might as well get it for free

"I do have trouble sleeping actually

You can pray for my sleep if you like "

I find medication or a good ol' fashioned mallet to the head or the ever-popular sleeperhold to be much more effective Maybe u just have infidel withdrawal very early in the morning, u know we have people who can help u with infidel addiction

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: kwigibo ]</p>

HelenM

kwigibo

well heroin can't be addicted to heroin can it now?

HelenM

Er...I'm lost now!

(In the understanding sense, not the theological one )

Feel free to elaborate?!

love
Helen

kwigibo

A little hair of the dog that bit ya is the cure.


to make it clear, if you're addicted to infidels u can be helped by infidels, but infidels cannot be addicted to themselves (in the same way)

Howay the Toon

Not while I'm alive you're not.

Tom in KC

First, off, I want to apologize to Doc58. Though it was not my intent, I came off (while attempting to respond to your request that I comment on your previous posts) as trivializing your non-belief and the experiences that you have had that led you there. As I said, “I don’t presume to know much about why you no longer believe.” I didn’t think that it was limited to the OT references that you had mentioned, and I am genuinely sorry if my post suggested otherwise.

Don and Muad'Dib, I have tried my best to give some examples of why I believe – examples that I hoped everyone could relate to. I think that the biggest problem with this kind of exchange is that the most compelling “proof” about faith is personal experience. Muad'Dib said, “I, personally (and there are others too, I'm sure), would be interested to hear what you consider to be the sum total of the perfectly adequate evidence for God's existence.” I started to make a more comprehensive list in response to his post, and then I realized that it was probably futile. This group is more astute than many Christians are about many aspects of Christianity, and I am not likely to break new ground in this age-old debate. You really need to talk with someone you know and like who is a Christian (I pray that there is someone that fits that mold for everyone reading this! If not, try to find a pastor who you feel comfortable talking with.). If lead to do so, talk to followers of other religions and hear their story. If, after these discussions, you get to a point where you want to ask God to reveal himself to you through scripture and through experiencing Jesus (applying His teachings and accepting His love), then I pray you will do that. If you feel that you can’t get there, I respect that. This experience (on the Sec. Web) has, more than anything, shattered some unfair, pre-conceived notions that I had about non-believers and their reasons for not believing. I guess that’s why I felt compelled to start this thread.

I desperately wish that I could somehow explain what Jesus has meant to me and to many others that I know. Helen makes an interesting observation, “I mean, they are supposed to have GOD indwelling them. If that makes no difference, that does say something to me about God, surely...?! ” I know that people get that impression, and it’s really sad. I struggle with aspects of my faith at times, but not for that reason. Selfishly, I wish that God would hold a press conference and confirm my beliefs and reveal himself undeniably to everyone. The thing that sustains me and my faith is the palpable love of God through His Son. I know some people will read that and not believe me or think that I’m crazy. I can’t tell you how much I’d like to be able to make everyone understand.

Love,
Tom

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tom in KC ]</p>

Muad'Dib

There are many Christians I know whom I consider to be friends, but beyond that there are two Christians whose advice I respect. The first is the pastor of the church that I left, and the second is my research advisor.

I have talked to each about my situation, and asked them a battery of very detailed questions, and each has said, independent of the other, that were they in my situation they may very well have left Christianity as well. But my experience alone was not sufficient for them to abandon their own beliefs, just as their experiences were not sufficient for me to adopt theirs.

An excellent suggestion for anyone. I have found parts of Buddhist philosophy to be especially enlightening (pun intended), and I also find Taoism to be quite interesting.

Interestingly enough, one of the things that started me thinking seriously about the role of Jesus in my belief system was my conversations with another student whose parents were Jewish, who was appalled at how blatantly the allegedly messianic prophecies in the NT were torn from any coherent context in the OT. I discovered then that not everyone's experiences complemented my own.

I was nominally a Christian for twenty years, although only during the last four did I seriously seek and ask for such an experience. One of the primary reasons I am now an unbeliever is that no response was forthcoming.

Perhaps you weren't previously aware of this, but many (perhaps most) people who visit this site were Christian at one point in their lives, and are quite familiar with Christian experiences.

I'm glad you're learning new things; that alone makes this conversation worthwhile, IMO.

I've heard more than one sermon on how God works even through other religions; they just don't recognize him.

That led me to wonder--and I never got a coherent (or civil, for that matter) answer to this--what if something else is true, and is working through Christianity, and Christians just don't recognize it? They call it Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, but what if it's Amitabha, the Buddha of Infinite Light and Life? Or the Shinto spirit of harmony? Or something else entirely, that no one has named? Or maybe even simple compassion and kindness?

Naturally (as the Buddhists say) we're more attached to one label than to others, but is that rational? What if we call it by the wrong name?

I think you're most likely sincere, and I also hate to be misunderstood: it's frustrating, and it's painful. But permit me to play around with words for a moment.

You hear "Jesus," and think of--well, something along these lines--love, caring, compassion, etc. Other people here see "Jesus," and think of an obscure itinerant Jewish preacher who, from a historical perspective, we really know very little about. This gap in associations is not going to be bridged by the kindness and good intentions of one person, nor of a hundred thousand. To convince our minds that this association might be a reasonable one, we need much more solid historical data and evidence than we have.

One possible alternative, though--and here is where I think I'm going to be presumptuous, and if so I beg your pardon--is what some liberal theologians suggest, namely, acquaint people, not necessarily with the name of Jesus, but with what you believe is the character of Jesus--namely, kindness, courtesy, and so forth. They won't call it the same thing you do (in fact, they'll probably dismiss entirely your name for it), but (as some theologians claim) perhaps experiencing the essence of Christ is what's most important, regardless of its name.

This sort of approach is the one Helen takes, if I'm not mistaken (Helen, feel free to correct me or clarify).

But of course this is IMO a more Buddhist idea than a Christian one, so you are free to take it or leave it.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Muad'Dib ]</p>

Muad'Dib

Yes they can!

-DM-

My sentiments, exactly, when -- because of my intense Bible study -- I first began to notice serious problems in the bible, and then in Christian theology, problems which made it impossible for me to continue to believe. That was some twenty years ago and the distress didn't last more than a couple of years.

Knowing what I now know about both the Bible and the underpinnings of Christian theology, there is absolutely no way that I could ever again be a "believer" -- unless I were to completely subvert my intellect.

--Don--