ageofreason2000

Where is Islam exactly? is this a country?

Islam is a religion not a region, differant countries have varying levels of Islamic world views effecting their governments and laws in differant ways, the only country ruled by Sharia (Islamic law) is Iran (and thats changing).

The palestines didn't agree to the UN partition of 47. They saw it as "we lived here before british control why should we loose half to these Jews who where few but now are many" (jews fleeing the holocaust).

Also the settlement of Isreal by the Jews was started by the Zionists, extremist jews who saw it as their holy land (2000 years ago), the Zionists are a mix of Jewish supremecy with a bit of religion to legitimize their colonial ambitions.

Its ALL about land, the opposing religions just adds extra layers of bigotry, closed-mindedness and hatred.


To get back on topic, I think this blaming all the worlds woes on religion makes the arguer sound like a fundi, I hate to say this but Galiel put this right with his comment of replacing one dogma with another.

Is your brand of Atheism (aimed at anyone not just you heathen Dawn) a dogma?
All praise the non god!

Age

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: ageofreason2000 ]</p>

Heathen Dawn

Islam is a religion that causes those who practice it seriously to commit atrocious acts. The first such act being "islaam" itself: submission to God. And from that flows all evil. When you believe you have to submit to God's will, you can commit atrocities without a remorse - you become a machine, a Robot of God.

It's not religion itself that's bad, and not even theism in general; it's submission, blind unquestioning submission to God (or to an apotheosized human such as Hitler or Stalin) that's the cause of so much evil.

ageofreason2000

Agreed

However their is a danger in blaming all actions carried out by individuals as the actions of their Faith.
It simplifies things to "us and them" but this in itself, demonizing a belief system so all who follow it are "bad", is just another belief.

Their are 1 Billion Muslims out there if they all believed in glory to Allah by suicide, then its gonna be a pretty big clean up bill (however there would be no islam to worry about once their through ).

Instead Muslims are like the xians.
Some are so thick it is amazing they remember to breath.
Others are so fanatical as to make you weary of owning a black cat (or go up tall buildings).
But most are just paying lip service, not wanting to rock the boat and trying to make sense of this random universe we inhabit.

The hijackers where fanatics.
But the suicide bombers are desperate and deluded taken in by men who strap TNT to them and send them on their way.
Islam plays its part filling them with pictures of a "glorious death", "doing the work of allah".
But the Isreali treatment of Palestine is the thing that actually makes them do it, not Islam.

Here's a question
If the palestines used more "conventional" methods do you think the world would be as aware of the conflict, or would Isreal have just quietly continued its practice of settling post 47 Palestinian land until there was not a palestinian in palestine?

Is it religion or political expediency?

Age

Heathen Dawn

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WHAT Israeli treatment?! Are you actually saying the Israeli government should be sitting quietly when suicide bombers are attacking in the heartland of the Jewish state?! Or better, are you saying the whole endeavour of setting up a Jewish state was a mistake?! You're actually siding with the terrorists!

Once and for all: Palestinian suicide bombing isn't just a means of gaining Palestinian independece; it's also a means of robbing the Jews of their independent state. You're committing the rationalist folly by supposing the Palestinian Muslims are rational people with ration goals just like you are. Not so! The end of their actions is not a homeland, but genocide of the Jews!

For more about the fallacy of rationalism in politics, read this article: <a href="http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/222/" target="_blank">The Rationalist Folly by Jonathan Rosenblum</a>.

Heathen Dawn

What's galling here is the psychological profile painted upon the suicide bombers: one makes it sound as if the Muslim suicide bombers do not want to commit suicide terrorism at all, but just because of political constraints, they are forced to.

But it is definitely not so! The Muslim suicide terrorists commit their acts gladly and with right good fervour and cheer, and are always after an excuse to kill the infidels. They love doing it. They love to kill infidels. Because that damned book, the Qur'an, conditions them to hate infidels and love killing them.

Reality shapes ideology, but ideology is sometimes strong enough as to change reality. Islam is one such ideology.

(edited to add: ) Israel is not to blame for Islamic suicide terrorism against it any more than Europe is to blame for the 1529 and 1683 Ottoman Turkish sieges over Vienna. Let that be clear.

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Heathen Dawn ]</p>

ageofreason2000

Apologies all, this is probally going off topic

I wish I could be so clear as you as to the mind of a Suicide Bomber.
Some I'm sure do "love" it but considering many are just young adults (what's the youngest, 16?) I find it hard to believe their is not just a smiggen of indoctrination by those who need willing TNT carriers.

But it's a special kind of blinkered who thinks Isreal has done no wrong.

The colonization of Palestine was shall we say, morally ambigious.
But the biggest crime of Israel has to be the new isreali settlements in post 47 palestinian lands.
Mind you the israeli police state imposed on palestine (curfews, checkpoints, etc.) doesn't make them saints either.
Nor the desimation of the entire palestinian infrastructure, as was quoted some while back (I am paraphrasing)

Israeli: "you must curb these suicide bombers, only then can we talk peace".
Palestine: "we would like to stop them, but as you keep blowing up our police stations, what are we to stop them with?"

The true nature of the Israeli goals is shown when you hear of Israeli conscripts refusing to serve as police for the illegal Israeli settlements
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,646023,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,646023,00.html</a>

I do not see the suicide bombers as heroes (an understatement if ever there was) but nor do I see them as mindless tools of Islam, existing in a vacuum free of the desperate circumstances in which they live.
The blow themselves up for politics, Islam just strengthens their resolve.

Age

ageofreason2000

Heathen Dawn

To add

I think its more the broad sweeping brush you use, simplifying a complex situation into the ills faith of one religion.

I wish the situation was that simple, I wish life was that simple that you could just see who was "good" and "bad" but its not.

And when you try to simplify acts of terror into the individuals faith, you are in danger of missing the real more subtle reasons.

Humans are complex creatures (yes even the god botherers) shaped by their childhood, their country, important events, physical and psychological disorders, and on and on.

No one thing makes a human act as he does.

Age

Heathen Dawn

ageofreason2000,

You've got a point. Maybe I am being too simplistic.

Religion itself is not the devil that anti-religionists often want to portray. As I said earlier, the problem is blind submission to a leader. This can also explain why Communism led to so much bloodshed. Communism wasn't a religion, but by manipulative hands it was turned into a doctrine of submission.

Kassiana would never commit an immoral act just by virtue of her theism; however, if she believes in a guru strongly enough to do blindly everything that guru says (and it may just as well be a neo-pagan guru as a Christian minister or Islamic shaikh or Marxist leader), that could be a source of trouble.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

NOGO

Dogmatic thinking comes from the belief in the absolute goodness of one's motives and goals.
You must admit that this kind of thinking is easier to achieve within a religious setting than a secular one.

This is the reason that communism collapsed in less than a century while Judaism, Christianity and Islam are still going.

The Lone Ranger

Oh, of course. Since most religions inextricably link belief with morality, believers are encouraged to think that it's downright immoral to question the tenets of the faith. To say the least, religions rarely encourage their followers to rationally evaluate the tenets of the faith.

This ties in with the rationalist fallacy, mentioned earlier. One must keep in mind that to the true Fundamentalist, the notion that unbelievers could be both knowledgable and moral is literally unthinkable. To such people, unbelievers are misguided and unenlightened at best, and active agents of evil at worst.

If the only two options are that unbelievers are either ignorant or evil, then it's easy to see why religious belief can so easily be used to justify hatred and intolerance.

Any dogmatic belief system can be used to the same effect, but I think it's obviously the case that religious beliefs are far more likely to incorporate the notion that unbelievers are immoral than are secular beliefs.

Cheers,

Michael