Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BioBeing · 05-08-2003, 01:44 PM

Tarnaak:

Quote:

I believe because I choose to do so. To not believe in a Creator, to believe that we spawn from muck and chance evolution, is ludicrous in my humble opinion. As far as being a �Christian�, I choose to believe because it makes the most sense and has a substantial history to back it up.

Sounds like Pascals Wager to me! Can you please expond for us upon the process of eliminiation you used to NOT worship any of the other 3000-odd gods, or the 1000 branches of Christianity other than the one you did chose?

Quote:

It would have been easy for him to create this realm and place us into it, but then we would just be drones doing his bidding, with perhaps a false sense of being loved by him. This is where free will comes in. In order to establish His Kingdom he created us with free will so that we would not just be drones. Our existence here on this earth is a proving ground for our Spirit. Only those with a pure Spirit will be allowed into the realm God calls Heaven. A pure Spirit is a spirit that loves God and wants, by choice to do his will.

So, instead of creating us drones to begin with, he creates us lets say "randomly" then selects for the ones that exhibit the drone phenotype? Kinda of like I would do if selecting for a bacteria resistant to a certain antibiotic: if I plate 10^8 (yes, that is ten to the power of eight) cells, then I might get one that has the desired phenotype. But for God, he then ends up with the drones anyway, while consigning the rest to the garbage heap.

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by orac
Selling teenage girls into slavery is perfect and holy? Sign me up! Oh, er, wait a minute. No, that's not perfect or holy at all. Sorry, your scripture has some pretty nasty and immoral bits as well.
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I'm assuming your are speaking of the Old Testament. Those nasty adn immoral bits are to show that even the most upstanding of God's elect do sin, which shows his Mercy in the forgiveness of those who did.
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Oh, that's right. It's just a test - pick out the good bits. What an interesting way to write a blueprint for living.
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What tidbits, Christ said "Love your neighbor..." How complicated is that? Or are you talking about the Jewish Law again?
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I'm curious about something, though: does your God want us to aspire to be as devious as He is? Should human parents raise their children by giving them rules with lots of little tricks in them, and punish them when they can't work out which rules are real?

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What tricks are you referring to? Old Testament again I suppose?
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Here we go again. You claim there's evidence, but the only thing I see is a very old book full of ravings from ancient nomads, sexism, racisim, slavery, violence, and instructions to believe or be punished. You even appear to claim it has lies, in order to mislead people who aren't careful enough. Do you have any better evidence than this?

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Archeological or Written ? (That would be a yes) (and no I'm not sharing, look it up yourself)

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Let me see if I understand you correctly:

You're claiming that Adam, Moses, the apostles, assorted prophets and holy men were all robots with no free will at all, yet were still capable of sin? Are you saying that the original fall (whether metaphorical or literal) was the deliberate and knowing choice of God?
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Not exactly. Given a set of circumstances, you have a given set of choices. The choice you make is yours (thiers). They (Moses, Abraham, Adam, Eve, ect) made thier choice, and God knew the choice they would make. That is why He Choose them for that particular situation. God set up a situation that ALLOWED them to do his will. Just as he sets up situations for you (the reader) to either accept or deny him. Just a side note, He sets up situations all the time, knowing before hand the outcome. He does this that you might believe and he knows when and if lyou will finally believe. He does this so that on Judgement day, you cannot say he is unjust in his final judgement for or against you.

Just as you have a choice now and in the future. God know's what choice you have made, or will make. This doesn't make them or you a robot

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That's a very strange idea. Most christians believe that Adam's sin was to rebel against God, yet you claim that Adam had no free will, and that his actions were caused by God.

Where does it say in the Bible that Adam wanted to rebel? He knowingly ate the apple, but was given false testimony as to what would happen if he did. Basically, just as most people that don't believe, they tell a false truth, a white lie if you will. Take the truth, skew, add pepper for taste and wa la, it is as the Bible warns about false teachings. That is why the Holy Spirit was sent, to provide for the believer the truth in Scripture. This is why one is not to judge others. We don't know if a person is led of the Holy Spirit or not Look to the Scripture for the Truth, if what the Scripture says and what the person says differ, then the Holy Spirit will help one to interprete what is truth.
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Or are you prepared to admit that the Bible explicitly shows that direct personal knowledge of God (including actually talking to him and seeing miracles) does not deny free will?
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No it doesn't. Scripture states that even some who have witnessed miracles will not believe.

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Another somewhat unrelated question:
What is it with christians who don't even know their own holy book? Why should we take people like that seriously?

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As I have stated previously, you shouldn't. If one cannot provide Scripture to back up a statement, then you shouldn't believe them. That's what false prophets and teachers do...

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What is it with christian's materalism and lust for wealth? Can someone please explain this to me? Seriously, what's wrong with a natural organic city where everywhere you go there's comfortable soft lawns to walk on?

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Actually its quite the opposite. You walk on lawn, in Heaven you walk on gold. Just goes to show you how insignificant gold really is.

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You've also got quite a physical body fixation there - whatever happened to "we're spirits, not bodies"?
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Where did you get this opinion from?
But to answer; Christ rose in a body, so we assume (yea i know)
that we will have bodies, but not like the ones we have now.

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Given the variety of experiences on earth and the total time required to last from now until the end of eternity, there's just something fishy about the idea of being stuck in one homogenous city for eternity but never getting bored.

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Time as we understand and use it will not exsist. The measure of time will be quite different.
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I believe in things that are real. This does not include your god or your heaven.
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Then you've made your choice for now. You still have time though...

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
Tarnaak:

Sounds like Pascals Wager to me! Can you please expond for us upon the process of eliminiation you used to NOT worship any of the other 3000-odd gods, or the 1000 branches of Christianity other than the one you did chose?

So, instead of creating us drones to begin with, he creates us lets say "randomly" then selects for the ones that exhibit the drone phenotype? Kinda of like I would do if selecting for a bacteria resistant to a certain antibiotic: if I plate 10^8 (yes, that is ten to the power of eight) cells, then I might get one that has the desired phenotype. But for God, he then ends up with the drones anyway, while consigning the rest to the garbage heap.

There is no process of elimination, you eliminate yourself or add yourself. (See answered post)

BioBeing · 05-08-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
There is no process of elimination, you eliminate yourself or add yourself. (See answered post)

Yes but you said you chose to believe in a creator. And that you then decided upon the Christian one. The two are not necessarily connected. And Islam has a history as long as Christianity. Judaism even longer. Vishnu is older still. What about which doctrine to follow? Why are the Catholics wrong (or why is everybody else wrong, if you are a Catholic?) Is it all the same God? If so, how do you know? Why are other sects wrong when they claim otherwise?

You did undergo a process of elimination. You selected, for whatever reason, Christianity. You have not selected Islam. You chose your church - however, I'd wager that you go to the same Church your parents do/did. You have rejected all the Churchs that you do not go to.

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:38 PM

CAPS USED TO DISTINGUSE MY RESPONSE NOT FOR YELLING

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Tarnaak:

You say:

God created us and gave us free will because He planned, from what we consider to be the beginning, a kingdom. God thought it out, planned it, created and now maintains his creation.

and:

The choice is ours and ours alone. We have been given free will and enough evidence to make a choice but at the same time test our spirit. God would like all to believe and reside with Him. He knows not all will believe. This, as Scripture tells us, breaks his heart.

and:

All was predestined, in that God had everything planned.

So we have a god that created us, created all this, gave us free will, planned everything out, including the fact that we'd be tested to prove our "purity."

RIGHT

So what this life becomes is a giant testing ground in which god creates us, places us, gives us free will, tests us or allows us to be tested. Only those of us that pass these tests gain his favor. He "loves" the rest of us but knowingly lets us "choose" hell. And all this was predestined and, if you believe god is truly omniscient, pre-known.

RIGHT

We're god's lab rats, blindly negotiating a maze with two doors - one a wonderful existence in a garden rich with food, and the other a cage, where the rats will be used in torturous, painful experiments. Some will get lucky, take the right turns, choose the right passage instead of the left, and thus end up in the garden. Most won't be so lucky. And god knows when he puts a rat in the maze where it will end up.

YOU ARE NOT BLIND, YOU HAVE SCRIPTURE AVAILABLE IF YOU choose TO USE IT

Before you criticize my analogy too much, remember that those rats have free will! They can choose which way to turn, which passage to take. Yet, christians often claim that the unlucky rats "choose" to go to the torture chamber!

RATS CANT READ

If god is capable of creating some people that he knows can pass the test, why not create everyone that way? Is god an imperfect creator, incapable of creating all of us "right"?

THE POINT OF FREE WILL WOULD BE NULL IF HE DID

What is the difference in regards to "free will" between god creating some he knows will make the right choice, and are thus predestined to eternal heaven, and the rest he knows will make the wrong choice, and are thus predestined to eternal hell, and god creating us all, revealing himself so that he can't be denied, or creating all of us predisposed to make the right choice, or otherwise assuring we all end up making the right choice and end up in the "right place"?

YOU SAY THIS AS IF GOD IS ACTUALLY CREATING PEOPLE TO PASS OR FAIL. YOU MISSING THE POINT (SEE OTHER REPLIES IN THIS THREAD)

When god creates someone, if he has foreknowledge, if all was planned, he knows the ultimate fate of that person, what he/she will choose to believe and where he/she will end up. That person ultimately has no "free will" in the matter; god's very act of creating that person with foreknowledge of his/her destiny sealed his/her fate.

YOUR MISSING THE POINT AGAIN. YOU CAN MAKE SOMETHING WITH A PARTICULAR PURPOSE IN MIND. AFTER YOU MAKE IT, IT DOESNT DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO DO. IT DIDN'T DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO DO BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT FREE WILL. YOU GAVE IT A CHOICE.

Further, why would "God the Creator [who] is Holy and Perfect" create the majority of his "loved" creatures knowing they are somehow flawed, imperfect, and will thus make the wrong choice and thus suffer eternally? And plan it that way? Where is the "holiness and perfection" in that???

GOD MADE ADAM AND EVE. HUMANS FROM ADAM AND EVE CONCIEVED FROM THERE

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
Yes but you said you chose to believe in a creator. And that you then decided upon the Christian one. The two are not necessarily connected. And Islam has a history as long as Christianity. Judaism even longer. Vishnu is older still. What about which doctrine to follow? Why are the Catholics wrong (or why is everybody else wrong, if you are a Catholic?) Is it all the same God? If so, how do you know? Why are other sects wrong when they claim otherwise?

As far as I know Christianity is the only religion whos main character actually claime diety and performed mircales and died specifically in the manner which was prophecied.
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You did undergo a process of elimination. You selected, for whatever reason, Christianity. You have not selected Islam. You chose your church - however, I'd wager that you go to the same Church your parents do/did. You have rejected all the Churchs that you do not go to.
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And actually, no, they were mormon

And actually, no, they were mormon

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taffer
According to the christians I've talked to, God doesn't give a wet cowpat whether you're a kind-hearted saint who died at the age of seventy with twenty grand-children mourning his passage or a convicted murderer still sizzling from the electric chair. As long as you believe, you're home free.

This does raise some thorny ethical questions, but the response was "To believe is to lead a good life". It's quite a clever reply (gets you coming and going), but since human conceptions of good and evil are relative, and nobody can lead a perfect life, it falls kinda short.

In a way you are correct. A thief was "saved" while dieing on a cross near Jesus. This shows that a "life" of believing is not strickly necessary. If one didn't know of Christ, was ont their deathbed and was introduced, then accepted, then they would be "saved". If they never found out at all about Christ, they would be as children that hadn't the opportunity, and would be "saved".

The Bible is perfectly clear as to what is good and evil..... so your relative argument cannot be used in that way

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
Interesting, how the Bible contradicts itself:

Furthermore, apparently it doesn't matter if we have faith or do works - Jesus has already predetermined our salvation for us (Ephesians, Chapter 1).

If you say you have faith, then sit at home 24/7 and do nothing, then your faith is dead. This is so one cannot "just" say I believe and expect salvation. If one says they believe but does nothing to show it, then his belief is a lie to himself and God.

One who truley believes will WANT to do something. Simply sharing ones faith with others (even on a message board) is a work of faith.

Hope that clears it up....

Mageth · 05-08-2003, 03:56 PM

Tarnaak, I think you need to pick a better format for your replies. The all bold and/or caps stuff is kinda ugly and hard to read. I'll leave your stuff in uppercase and not bold it here.

YOU ARE NOT BLIND, YOU HAVE SCRIPTURE AVAILABLE IF YOU choose TO USE IT

Which scripture? There's lots of other religious texts than the bible, you know. How are you sure your chosen scripture is correct and not some other, say the Quran?

YOU SAY THIS AS IF GOD IS ACTUALLY CREATING PEOPLE TO PASS OR FAIL. YOU MISSING THE POINT (SEE OTHER REPLIES IN THIS THREAD)

I think you're missing the point. If god creates with foreknowledge, he is creating people to pass or fail. He knows when, even before, he creates someone if they'll pass or fail.

YOUR MISSING THE POINT AGAIN. YOU CAN MAKE SOMETHING WITH A PARTICULAR PURPOSE IN MIND. AFTER YOU MAKE IT, IT DOESNT DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO DO. IT DIDN'T DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO DO BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT FREE WILL. YOU GAVE IT A CHOICE.

You're missing the point again. Not if you knowingly and willingly created it with the foreknowledge of the choice(s) it will make. It's exactly the same as if it was programmed. If god has foreknowledge, I can't make any other choices than the ones god already knows I will make.

GOD MADE ADAM AND EVE. HUMANS FROM ADAM AND EVE CONCIEVED FROM THERE

So god doesn't create humans? God is not the only creator? And what does this say about god's "plan" I believe you alluded to?

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sci_Fidelity
Posted by Celsus:

Why would god need a book? I wonder if he has alzheimer's or something. Oh wait- this is a figurative book. Sorry :boohoo: [/B]

The book(s) are for our benifit not God's. If you see your whole exsistance written down, then you will not be able to deny what judgement has been imposed. It's like a legal document for all to see...

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05-08-2003, 03:56 PM	#29
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Tarnaak, I think you need to pick a better format for your replies. The all bold and/or caps stuff is kinda ugly and hard to read. I'll leave your stuff in uppercase and not bold it here. YOU ARE NOT BLIND, YOU HAVE SCRIPTURE AVAILABLE IF YOU choose TO USE IT Which scripture? There's lots of other religious texts than the bible, you know. How are you sure your chosen scripture is correct and not some other, say the Quran? YOU SAY THIS AS IF GOD IS ACTUALLY CREATING PEOPLE TO PASS OR FAIL. YOU MISSING THE POINT (SEE OTHER REPLIES IN THIS THREAD) I think you're missing the point. If god creates with foreknowledge, he is creating people to pass or fail. He knows when, even before, he creates someone if they'll pass or fail. YOUR MISSING THE POINT AGAIN. YOU CAN MAKE SOMETHING WITH A PARTICULAR PURPOSE IN MIND. AFTER YOU MAKE IT, IT DOESNT DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO DO. IT DIDN'T DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO DO BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT FREE WILL. YOU GAVE IT A CHOICE. You're missing the point again. Not if you knowingly and willingly created it with the foreknowledge of the choice(s) it will make. It's exactly the same as if it was programmed. If god has foreknowledge, I can't make any other choices than the ones god already knows I will make. GOD MADE ADAM AND EVE. HUMANS FROM ADAM AND EVE CONCIEVED FROM THERE So god doesn't create humans? God is not the only creator? And what does this say about god's "plan" I believe you alluded to?

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