Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kalestia · 07-22-2002, 04:49 PM

I'm curious whether anybody has any thoughts or conclusions about Traditional Chinese Medicine as well as the existance of Chi!

A lot of people immediately dismiss the concept of "Chi" as some Taoist-religous- type mumbo jumbo, and don't really look into it. I take Tai Chi Chuan, but some of my fellow Christian friends think I'm dabbling in the occult

So I'd like to hear views from all you non-religious people so I won't be immediately condemned to hell

tronvillain · 07-22-2002, 05:19 PM

I suggest Science & Skepticism for this one.

optimist · 07-22-2002, 05:27 PM

"some of my fellow Christian friends think I'm dabbling in the occult"

I think you both are. (Sorry, you set yourself up for that one)

While traditional medicine does have some virtues, it deserves much much less credit than it does. Most of it does not work except as placebo.

Carl Sagan mentions in his Demon Haunted World about how these ancient medicines had methods of testing that would be far too unethical for us to pursue nowadays. Testing in a trial-and-error basis directly on humans, Wow! Our scientists would be labeled Nazis if we did such a thing. Testing by the normal methods should go forth to discover which of these alt. medicines are actually helpful, we should definitely take advantage of those ancient methods of medical discovery not open to us today.

However, the myths behind why the ancients thought these alt. medicines work seem almost certainly false. Through trial-and-error drugs were found to cure certain diseases. Not knowing much about the world (or in the case of chiropractic's, just being irrational) these practitioners invented myths explaining why these medicines worked. If something like acupuncture turns out to have some medical advantage, it will certainly not be for the reasons these ancient Chinese practitioners thought it did.

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: optimist ]</p>

optimist · 07-22-2002, 06:22 PM

Let me offer some links:

The Skeptic Dictionary:
<a href="http://www.skepdic.com/" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/</a>

Entry on Chi:
<a href="http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html</a>

Entry on Alt. Medicine:
<a href="http://www.skepdic.com/althelth.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/althelth.html</a>

Kalestia · 07-22-2002, 07:20 PM

Hm, interesting, however I'm not sure I agree with completely dismissing the ideas altogether. While that answer may satisfy some who have never experienced "chi", it really isn't convincing to others... My old Sifu (Chinese martial arts master) could do some pretty interesting things with the Tai Chi concept, such as throw a person back 10 feet using two fingers and barely any movement, or heal bruises without touching it. Is it really some form of energy unmeasured by western scientists or is it simply more "rational" techniques that aren't commonly known?

And as for Traditional Chinese Medicine, do you include pressure points as "hocus pocus"? And to what extent? Because accupressure and accupuncture aren't too far off from each other.

optimist · 07-22-2002, 07:45 PM

"heal bruises without touching it."

You mean he could instantly heal bruises? (the "without touching it" part seems minor.)

"Is it really some form of energy unmeasured by western scientists or is it simply more "rational" techniques that aren't commonly known?"

That doesn't make sense. The rational techniques I suggest these treatments be tested by are simple double-blind experiments. E.g. put your m. arts teacher in controled enviroment (so to exclude trickery) with a bruised person who believes in Chi. Then give him a brused person who doesn't believe in Chi. Then have someone "play-act" as a healer and do what he did on a person who believes in Chi, then a person who doesn't. Repeat this on enough people and your medicine will be proven or disproven.

As far as why it works, if it was proven true in those test would be open to further study. I would doubt the reason it worked is why the m. arts teach thought it worked (magic energy), but if that would have to be found out in the further study.

"And as for Traditional Chinese Medicine, do you include pressure points as "hocus pocus"?"

I do not specificly exclude many traditional chinese practices because I have not studied many of them specificly. However, so no, I do not assume pressure points to be hocus pocus but I would not partake in such a unorthodox practice without some study into the practice. Secondly, if the reason they give for pressure points is some magical force...then that part I would count as hocus pocus for many good general reasons.

So I do not discount that some of alt. medicine *works*, but I do discount the reasons offered for *why it works*. On top of that I also would expect most (but not all) alt. medicine will only work as placebo. (I am assuming you are familure with placebo? Someone is given a treatment that does not really work (e.g. a sugar-pill) and they get better because they *think* they got medicine for their illness. For example, cases exist where people who are told a certain plant will cause a rash, and then are touched with that plant (which really does not cause a rash), will develop a rash.

Placebos will obviously not work on things like broken bones, but stomach pains, ulcers, rashes, headaches, etc. yes.

I would go so far as to assume *most* people on this forum would agree with what I have posted. (of course, not all here)

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: optimist ]</p>

Tom Sawyer · 07-23-2002, 08:08 AM

Kalestia,

When you say he could throw people back 10 feet with two fingers and heal bruises with a touch, did you ever actually see him doing those things?

I take Aikido and some of the black belts can throw people hard using minimal strength and redirecting the force of their opponent's strike into the throw, but that's just using a knowledge of balance and positioning with nothing mystical about it and nothing like throwing a guy 10 feet with two fingers and barely any movement.

If a Tai Chi master can heal bruises with a touch, do you know of any website that has a recording of this happening? I'd have trouble believing that without seeing it with my own eyes.

My personal thoughts are that the whole concept of Chi is based upon learning to relax your body and breathe properly, etc. which can have a lot of good health benefits. This being tied to some kind of mystical force which you learn to channel, though, sounds pretty iffy to me.

07-22-2002, 04:49 PM	#1
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	Traditional Chinese Medicine and Chi I'm curious whether anybody has any thoughts or conclusions about Traditional Chinese Medicine as well as the existance of Chi! A lot of people immediately dismiss the concept of "Chi" as some Taoist-religous- type mumbo jumbo, and don't really look into it. I take Tai Chi Chuan, but some of my fellow Christian friends think I'm dabbling in the occult So I'd like to hear views from all you non-religious people so I won't be immediately condemned to hell

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07-22-2002, 05:19 PM	#2
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I suggest Science & Skepticism for this one.

07-22-2002, 05:27 PM	#3
optimist Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Depending on the week: Miami, Dallas, or Seattle Posts: 101	"some of my fellow Christian friends think I'm dabbling in the occult" I think you both are. (Sorry, you set yourself up for that one) While traditional medicine does have some virtues, it deserves much much less credit than it does. Most of it does not work except as placebo. Carl Sagan mentions in his Demon Haunted World about how these ancient medicines had methods of testing that would be far too unethical for us to pursue nowadays. Testing in a trial-and-error basis directly on humans, Wow! Our scientists would be labeled Nazis if we did such a thing. Testing by the normal methods should go forth to discover which of these alt. medicines are actually helpful, we should definitely take advantage of those ancient methods of medical discovery not open to us today. However, the myths behind why the ancients thought these alt. medicines work seem almost certainly false. Through trial-and-error drugs were found to cure certain diseases. Not knowing much about the world (or in the case of chiropractic's, just being irrational) these practitioners invented myths explaining why these medicines worked. If something like acupuncture turns out to have some medical advantage, it will certainly not be for the reasons these ancient Chinese practitioners thought it did. [ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: optimist ]</p>

07-22-2002, 06:22 PM	#4
optimist Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Depending on the week: Miami, Dallas, or Seattle Posts: 101	Let me offer some links: The Skeptic Dictionary: <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/</a> Entry on Chi: <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html</a> Entry on Alt. Medicine: <a href="http://www.skepdic.com/althelth.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepdic.com/althelth.html</a>

07-22-2002, 07:20 PM	#5
Kalestia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 24	Hm, interesting, however I'm not sure I agree with completely dismissing the ideas altogether. While that answer may satisfy some who have never experienced "chi", it really isn't convincing to others... My old Sifu (Chinese martial arts master) could do some pretty interesting things with the Tai Chi concept, such as throw a person back 10 feet using two fingers and barely any movement, or heal bruises without touching it. Is it really some form of energy unmeasured by western scientists or is it simply more "rational" techniques that aren't commonly known? And as for Traditional Chinese Medicine, do you include pressure points as "hocus pocus"? And to what extent? Because accupressure and accupuncture aren't too far off from each other.

07-22-2002, 07:45 PM	#6
optimist Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Depending on the week: Miami, Dallas, or Seattle Posts: 101	"heal bruises without touching it." You mean he could instantly heal bruises? (the "without touching it" part seems minor.) "Is it really some form of energy unmeasured by western scientists or is it simply more "rational" techniques that aren't commonly known?" That doesn't make sense. The rational techniques I suggest these treatments be tested by are simple double-blind experiments. E.g. put your m. arts teacher in controled enviroment (so to exclude trickery) with a bruised person who believes in Chi. Then give him a brused person who doesn't believe in Chi. Then have someone "play-act" as a healer and do what he did on a person who believes in Chi, then a person who doesn't. Repeat this on enough people and your medicine will be proven or disproven. As far as why it works, if it was proven true in those test would be open to further study. I would doubt the reason it worked is why the m. arts teach thought it worked (magic energy), but if that would have to be found out in the further study. "And as for Traditional Chinese Medicine, do you include pressure points as "hocus pocus"?" I do not specificly exclude many traditional chinese practices because I have not studied many of them specificly. However, so no, I do not assume pressure points to be hocus pocus but I would not partake in such a unorthodox practice without some study into the practice. Secondly, if the reason they give for pressure points is some magical force...then that part I would count as hocus pocus for many good general reasons. So I do not discount that some of alt. medicine works, but I do discount the reasons offered for why it works. On top of that I also would expect most (but not all) alt. medicine will only work as placebo. (I am assuming you are familure with placebo? Someone is given a treatment that does not really work (e.g. a sugar-pill) and they get better because they think they got medicine for their illness. For example, cases exist where people who are told a certain plant will cause a rash, and then are touched with that plant (which really does not cause a rash), will develop a rash. Placebos will obviously not work on things like broken bones, but stomach pains, ulcers, rashes, headaches, etc. yes. I would go so far as to assume most people on this forum would agree with what I have posted. (of course, not all here) [ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: optimist ]</p>

07-23-2002, 08:08 AM	#7
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Kalestia, When you say he could throw people back 10 feet with two fingers and heal bruises with a touch, did you ever actually see him doing those things? I take Aikido and some of the black belts can throw people hard using minimal strength and redirecting the force of their opponent's strike into the throw, but that's just using a knowledge of balance and positioning with nothing mystical about it and nothing like throwing a guy 10 feet with two fingers and barely any movement. If a Tai Chi master can heal bruises with a touch, do you know of any website that has a recording of this happening? I'd have trouble believing that without seeing it with my own eyes. My personal thoughts are that the whole concept of Chi is based upon learning to relax your body and breathe properly, etc. which can have a lot of good health benefits. This being tied to some kind of mystical force which you learn to channel, though, sounds pretty iffy to me.

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