Yellum Notnef

Good point.

Americans seem to view Christian "righteousness" the same way they do car stereos. "Ain't no point in having it if I can't crank it up and let everybody know that I got it".

They are both equally annoying even though one is real and the other exists only in the mind of the owner.

Starboy

Sabine, if creationism was a legitimate scientific theory I would agree with you, but it is as legitimate as the theory that the earth is the center of the solar system. There is not enough time to teach the valid scientific theories let alone the invalid theories. Also if you are for the teaching of creationism you should be for teaching the creation myths of all religions. How about the creation myths of the Hindus? Or Australian Aborigines? Or American Indians? I would actually be for this since students would not only learn how man has historically used myth to understand his surroundings, but they would get a dose of world culture as well. But you know, as well as I, that many Christians would have none of it since it conflicts with their claim that Christianity is the one “true” description of reality.

Starboy

Sabine Grant

Iam a bit concerned about your belief that anyone ought to be treated poorly. If you respond by poor treatment to a person who puts on your nerves and offends your sense of humanism by expressing such ideas as you quoted, what positive influence will you have on his attitude?

Should you not look to build a bridge of positive communication and gently make him aware of your own ideology and possibly help him revise his thinking? or do you just give up on the opportunity to make that difference?

We either decide to burn bridges or build them. If your level of tolerance is challenged by such christians mine is challenged by individuals who express racial prejudice. Because of my childhood in Africa and also in an arab country where we had jewish communities, racial prejudice is the ultimate challenge to my tolerance. However, I have found that I can intervene and influence the thinking of a racialy prejudiced individual if I can nurture a relationship with him or her. It means of course having to be exposed to a lot of garbage. But there is a way if there is a will to make a difference.
I just thought you might want to reconsider treating poorly anyone who challenges your values by looking at the long term goal to be accomplished.

Yellum Notnef

I wonder if Sabine would like to give equal time to a student initiated expose on how aliens from the planet Nibiru created humans out of earliy hominids to use as slave labor in their ancient African goldmines? (They needed this gold dust to repair the atmosphere on their home planet)

There are quite a few people around who believe this is exactly what happened. Shouldn't their creation theories have equal time as well?

DMB

Muffinstuffer's run-in with the teacher over prayer was just one run-in with one teacher as I understand it. No one here has a clue as to the teacher's thinking nor do we approve of his/her action.

Now let me tell you what happened to me when I was 11. Our teacher had given the class some written work to do and I had finished it. (I was always a conscientious A-grade student, so my finishing fast didn't mean I had skimped on it.) I was sitting at the back of the class and I quietly got out a library book and started to read it. The teacher finally realised what I was doing, so she stormed up the room and grabbed my book, informing me that she was confiscating it.

Now what on earth was eating her? There was no issue of church and state here! I cite this simply to show that this kind of thing can happen because of the idiosyncrasies of the teacher. I have also known boys who were sitting thinking get a clout on the head for wool-gathering. Teachers are not always just or rational.

Sabine Grant

I specificaly mentionned STUDENT INITIATED not part of the teaching curriculum. You are dwelling on " teaching creation". I am dwelling on the various approaches a student is allowed to present as to " where did life come from?". My now Senior daughter was given an opportunity to write an expose on " The Stone Age" thru Biblical examination in her Social Sciences class in 6 th grade. She recieved an A for her work and the presentation of her arguments.
Also for your information, any student could in a Social science Class decide to present arguments thru a project showing the mythological origines of religions.
Please pay attention to the tems I use... there is a vast difference between student initiated projects and a teaching curriculum.
Are you implying that teachers should teach anti religion themes? it would be no different than if they taught pro religion themes. Their neutrality in those topics is vital. That is why STUDENT INITIATED as a term is recognized as productive in a class environment. It promotes research and again as I stated earlier critical thinking. And it does not compromise the neutrality of the teacher who is supposed to evaluate the work and presentation of the arguments of the student ONLY.

Starboy

Sorry Sabine, I misunderstood your post. If a student wishes to use creationism as a response to a class assignment then that is fine with me. The teacher can deal with it as they see fit. I would hope that whatever went on would be in line with the stated goals of the class whatever that might be. It is our tax money after all and we should get our monies worth. I am as dependent on your child to be an upstanding member of society as you are on mine.

Starboy

Yellum Notnef

Not only that but the school day is only so long. Theres not nearly enough time to teach kids the pratical and helpful things they need to know never mind time to spend on utter bullshit.

Thats why I asked about the aliens.

Sabine Grant

Do not wonder anylonger Fenton... first of as a parent I am not to interfere with what the administration of any public school has allowed the students to do as part of student initiated projects. Unless of course, I detect a violation of the freedom of speech of any student despite of the student's effort to remain within curriculum content.
Of course that student ought to be able to present his or her approach to " where did life come from?".
Do you want to muzzle students to what is conformed to what you believe or do you support expanding critical thinking by promoting the exchange of idelogies inter students no matter how controversial they may be?

Interesting that as a christian I am the one who wants to see the support of promoting critical thinking........

Another example of student initiated topics...the Social Sciences teacher of my daughter in 9 th grade decided to approach sensitive issues such as euthanasia in the classroom. Two students presented pre and con arguments to that topic. It was a fine experience for my daughter as she learned to research arguments other than the cliche ones. She had to conduct research on reported legal cases etc...

In 6 th grade my other daughter (now 15) decided to work on a project in Science researching the notion of creation thru the Big Bang theory.

However, recently my ( now a senior )older daughter decided to work on a very controversial subject in her high school. She interviewed students who are drug users to expose how the kids get to drugs localy.... the Principal of the school refused to publish her article concerned that parents would view the school's reputation negatively. Too close for comfort I guess...
She accepted the administrator's decision and considered her work to have been a practice for her future carreer. So... there will be times when a student will be told " no no" if the topic may result in compromising the overall right standing of faculty and staff.

I encountered only one example of a faculty member who had included religious propaganda in the standard 2nd grade curriculum. If the educational value of introducing students to native american culture is not demeaned by me here, I found as well as other parents, that the teacher crossed over the line when she invited the children to reenact a shamanist ritual in the classroom. Imagine another teacher having kids reenact a mass as part of illustrating Italian culture for example. That line is very fine for the teachers and they have to be careful to not cross it.

I taught only in foreign languages so I never had to be too concerned with crossing that line. However only when I had to present the native culture of the language did I have to remain careful as I commented on the mainstream religions practised in the country. I usualy waited for a student to ask " what kind of religions do they have over there".

It is my hope you have ceased to wonder by now....

Sabine Grant

I agree starboy...and I think that our kids if given the opportunity in school to present their ideologies as part of the curriculum it also teaches them to be more accepting of the diversity in our society. They will be challenged by other students on their arguments... the other advantage is that it all happens in a control environment where hopefuly the teacher can moderate the event and debate while equipping the kids with positive communication tools.