Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Samhain · 04-08-2002, 01:46 PM

Chris,

If what Mageth said is accurate and you are looking for somekind of "meaning" which transcends existential meaning, then you won't find it from an atheistic perspective. We must create "purpose" for our own lives, why? Because there is nothing which inherently gives our lives that "purpose". To be a slave to the purpose that a fairy tale book gives you is very sad.

Mageth,

Life and existence are not definitions only. These can also be shown as meanings, the only true meaning considering that everyone else creates their own "micro" meanings to their lives.

Theli · 04-08-2002, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I need you guys to test my logic here:

If you deny the existence of God, there is really no reason to live. There is no purpose. Evolution, if you believe it, does away with any need for purpose. We may invent purpose, but how can that matter? A cosmic accident presumes to give itself purpose? We are an accident. We are here for no reason. We may say we are here for our kids. We may also say the sun is here to warm the earth. Of course that's not why the sun is here. There's no reason for the sun to be here. It's coincidence that it provides a service for us. If we presume to appoint a purpose for ourselves it's a pretty pathetic and useless purpose because there really is no universal goal.
I really can't understand why an atheist can say life has purpose. Please clarify that for me.

Then tell me Christoph, what is your purpose?

Mageth · 04-08-2002, 02:27 PM

Samhain:

Life and existence are not definitions only. These can also be shown as meanings, the only true meaning considering that everyone else creates their own "micro" meanings to their lives.

Understood. I just don't see much if any difference in the statements "the meaning of life is to live," "the meaning of life is to exist," and "there is no meaning to life." But then I'm not an existentialist, at least I don't think I am.

zamboniavenger · 04-08-2002, 02:49 PM

Chris,

Quote:

If you deny the existence of God, there is really no reason to live

This is ridiculous, seriously. So why don't I just kill my parents and slit my throat?

Quote:

There is no purpose.

That's right, there is no objective purpose.

Quote:

We are here for no reason.

This I disagree with though. As MANY people have pointed out quite eloguently and distinctly, making myself and others around me happy is enough purpose for one life. Seriously, get over yourself please. You are one person, in one moment in time, in one place. There are billions of other people alive right now, not even counting those that have lived or will live.

Quote:

OK. This is my argument for it.
We have purpose. It had to come from somewhere (everything in our universe does, as far as we know).

When people talk about positive assertions and the burden of proof, they're talking about these two statements right here. YOU have to PROVE 1) We have "Purpose". Then you're still not done as you have to PROVE 2)that this purpose came from YOUR god.

Quote:

I'm just waiting for an answer.

No your not, you're waiting for your answer. If I give it to you will you go away?

Quote:

I haven't established that there is a Purpose.

Now he's catching on...

Quote:

I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to think that I could do something like that when nature screams at the top of her lungs and has been for years.

...or maybe not. Yet another positive assertion Chris.

Quote:

I will never prove anything to you until you stop saying, "There is no God, therefore..."

What's the fun in that? That's like me trying to prove to Mageth or Kvalhion that there is no objective purpose to life.

Quote:

Atheism exposes itself when it tries to say that the evolutionary process continued without any kind of goal whatsoever.

Once again, could you please explain this connection.

Quote:

To admit a goal is to imply pre-existing intelligence.

Hey man, I think the only person admitting that is you!

Quote:

I'm just waiting for the logic you offer on the subject of meaning, regardless of your personal feelings about me.

No, you're waiting for YOUR logic. And I don't have any personal feelings about you. I don't care. How do you feel about that?

I know it can be earth-shattering to think that maybe, just maybe you are not the center of the universe, or that maybe, just maybe there is no afterlife. I kinda of like the idea of being the most important person in the universe, and living forever too. That doesn't make it true.

Jayhawker Soule · 04-08-2002, 03:09 PM

Having said: "If you prefer a false answer to no answer, go with God."

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I'm just waiting for the logic you offer on the subject of meaning, regardless of your personal feelings about me.

OK, folks, I'm at a loss here. Does anyone have a clue what this guy thinks I offered?

sighhswolf · 04-08-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MortalWombat:


I guess that's really not our problem, it's yours, isn't it? You don't seem to take people at their word that they can have meaning in their lives without a belief in any gods, but I don't have to explain why to you any more than I have to explain why I find rainbows beautiful even though I don't believe in leprechauns with pots o' gold at the end of them.

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]

Yes to MortalWombat..........
The above reply is right on the money...It's not my problem if you think you need god and religion to give you purpose....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, are you saying that your life is meaningless without looking forward to DEATH??
In my world I am very happy living everyday to it's fullest, and I certainly do not spend valuable time searching for some pie in the sky purpose/meaning to life....not when I have my family to take care of and my pets that need my attention, and my work which I like for the most part....why should I do like 99.99% of all those people who call themselves christians and show up for church on sundays and screw god the rest of the week?
What is the purpose of your life....the one that you have been given by your god, what did he tell you he wanted you to accomplish with your life?
I think it is pretty selfish for people to say oh
I have to have some grand purpose to my being and my existence....if you have to look outside of your sphere of influence for some grand purpose,
some reason for your existence...then I feel sorry for you, and more I feel sorry for all those with whom you are close.
Because you surely sound like a self absorbed spoiled child who does nothing without some special treatment or reward.

Wolf

Godless Dave · 04-08-2002, 04:27 PM

I have no purpose, I'm perfectly happy with that. You're assuming that we need one, or that we have one, when that's just what you feel.

I'm here by a cosmic accident, and it doesn't bother me at all. Since I'm alive, what else am I gonna do but live?

Or as that great philosopher Neil Peart said, "Why are we here? Because we're here. Roll the bones."

Technos · 04-08-2002, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I need you guys to test my logic here:

If you deny the existence of God

What god? Allah, Shiva, Yarma, Diana? Be specific.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
there is really no reason to live.

Well, we define our own reasons to live. If you ask me, there would be no reason to live if you believed in an afterlife that's better than this life.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
Evolution, if you believe it, does away with any need for purpose. We may invent purpose

Tell that to the pope, he believes in evolution.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
A cosmic accident presumes to give itself purpose?

Who made the accident? Did I miss something?

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
 We are here for no reason.

I'm here to read, I can't speak for you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
 We may say we are here for our kids. We may also say the sun is here to warm the earth. Of course that's not why the sun is here.

The sun isn't self aware, but heck most humans aren't really self aware. The thinking man has no problem finding a reason to live.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
 There's no reason for the sun to be here. It's coincidence that it provides a service for us.

What's your point?

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
 If we presume to appoint a purpose for ourselves it's a pretty pathetic and useless purpose because there really is no universal goal.

So lay down and die then, but please excuse the rest of us for living on. What's the point in living if you were created by some magical being to fulfill a specific task? We developed naturally, we developed our own reason to live or reasons were/are thrust upon us. So what if we have no huge impact on the universe in whole, does it matter? Does it mean that no human ever will, and is the legacy of the species not reason enough to live?

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
 I really can't understand why an atheist can say life has purpose. Please clarify that for me.

I really can't understand how a theist can say that life has any meaning or value, please clarify this for me.

Technos · 04-08-2002, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I really must clarify. I'm looking at it from mankinds perspective

Wow really?! So am I!!! Which of "mankind's perspectives" are you looking through?

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I understand that we invent our own micro-purposes that don't amount to anything if there's no singular purpose.

So what's your singular purpose?

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
Can you explain any kind of ideology, even the seperation of church and state, without knowing what the real goal is?

I believe that when we are first born our ultimate goal is to survive, the rest we define as we live. As we grow we may develop other goals that we can weigh against our own life (the well being of my wife and child for example), but survival seems to be the first purpose.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
You may think that Hitler was wrong to kill the Jews, but how can you say that if you don't know the goal of mankind?

We're social animals, go to a hive of killer bees and start smashing their heads, see how long it takes for you to turn into their enemy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
You certainly can't say that if you don't know the purpose (if there is one).

And yet you've not shared your "ultimate purpose" with us.

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Technos ]

Technos · 04-08-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
If you admit that there can be a God, it's unreasonable not to think that He

Ok so you believe in a male deity of some kind. That rules out Shiva and Diana at least. Be more specific theist, you don't have a monopoly on theism so tell us which deity you're speaking of.

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04-08-2002, 01:46 PM	#61
Samhain Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,735	Chris, If what Mageth said is accurate and you are looking for somekind of "meaning" which transcends existential meaning, then you won't find it from an atheistic perspective. We must create "purpose" for our own lives, why? Because there is nothing which inherently gives our lives that "purpose". To be a slave to the purpose that a fairy tale book gives you is very sad. Mageth, Life and existence are not definitions only. These can also be shown as meanings, the only true meaning considering that everyone else creates their own "micro" meanings to their lives.

04-08-2002, 02:27 PM	#63
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Samhain: Life and existence are not definitions only. These can also be shown as meanings, the only true meaning considering that everyone else creates their own "micro" meanings to their lives. Understood. I just don't see much if any difference in the statements "the meaning of life is to live," "the meaning of life is to exist," and "there is no meaning to life." But then I'm not an existentialist, at least I don't think I am.

04-08-2002, 04:27 PM	#67
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	I have no purpose, I'm perfectly happy with that. You're assuming that we need one, or that we have one, when that's just what you feel. I'm here by a cosmic accident, and it doesn't bother me at all. Since I'm alive, what else am I gonna do but live? Or as that great philosopher Neil Peart said, "Why are we here? Because we're here. Roll the bones."

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