winstonjen

And if god said that premarital sex and rape were no longer sins, and he asked you to rape your family members, would you do it?

Magus, what you have is a BOOK, which CLAIMS to be inspired by an infinite being, but ultimately written by men. How is the Koran any less valid to your viewpoint? Does the reward of 77-odd virgins not appeal to you? Is that it? Desire for a reward or avoidance of a punishment?

Biff the unclean

Well....a....Yes. Yes it will vanish if the evidence is refuted. In fact that is the point. It is a positive thing that faith in something that has been refuted vanishes. It would be stupid of the person not to suspend their faith when the evidence shows that they are wrong. Call it "the scientific method" or call it "honesty."
What use is faith if it isn't based on evidence? That is nothing but vanity and self delusion. It's just being credulous.

emotional

It's the only option when evidence is not forthcoming. For example, disbelieving in life after death is not an option for me, but there is no conclusive evidence for life after death, so all I can do is believe in life after death without evidence.

Call it what you like. I've convinced myself that God and the afterlife are real, so I fully believe they're real.

PaladInChrist

You got your Bible from us, the big-bad RCC. We add nothing to it, we simply know what it means, since we compiled it.

"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

Matthew 25:31-46

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Clearly our Lord makes the point that good works are not only important, but essential to salvation. If works come automatically from faith, then why did Jesus tell us that we must do good works to enter Heaven? Wouldn't it be redundant to teach about the works part of the equation? Faith was not mentioned once in this teaching, only works. Faith is also necessary, as we shall see, but it is not sufficient.


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." - John 3:16-18

"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life." - John 5:24


So belief is necessary for salvation, and nothing can be done without it. But from the previous teaching, it is clear that works are also necessary for salvation. Indeed, works and faith are both parts of the same whole, which is made possible by grace alone. Jesus explains this further in the Gospel of St John, and it is also attested to in the various epistles.

"I am the true vine and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and every one that does He prunes so that it bears more fruit.
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, no neither can you unless you remain in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned." - John 15:1-6
So, how do we remain in Him? Jesus goes on in verse 10 to explain how,


"If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in His love."
So, we see that we must take some action, which is to keep the commandments, and what are Jesus commandments that we must keep?

Jesus tells us in verse 12,


"This is my commandment: love one another as I love you."
So, if we keep His commandment to love one another, we will bear the fruit of that love, which is good works toward each other. And by keeping this commandment, we remain in Him, and we will produce even more fruits. If we do not bear these fruits, we will be cut off and thrown out.

We can see from Jesus' own words that we must bear the fruit of love towards one another if we are to remain in Him, and He sums this idea up in Matthew 7:21,

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven."

So simply having faith that Jesus is your Lord is not sufficient in itself. This faith must be accompanied by doing whatever the Father commands us to do, because the works complete the faith. This theme is echoed in James, which is why Martin Luther tried to have it removed from the Bible, refering to it as "an epistle of straw."

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works."

"You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"
So even the demons have faith, but faith without works is useless for obtaining salvation.

"For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Catholicism does not teach works-based righteousness, it teaches grace-based righteousness, just like Jesus taught. Righteousness must be grounded in unmerited grace first, just as the branches must first be grounded in the vine, and then it must produce works, or fruits, to remain righteous. And by remaining on the vine, we are pruned to produce even more fruit. This fruit is not automatic, it is simply now possible that we can bear the fruit. If it was automatic, Jesus wouldn't have warned us to stay on the vine by producing good fruit. In other words, it would be unnecessary to warn us if we didn't have a part to play in the process.

PaladInChrist

And the early Church believed what we believe...how is that possible if we "add" to the Bible?

--

Clement of Rome circa 98 AD

"Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. 'For God,' saith [the Scripture], 'resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.' Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."

"For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?"

" All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Ignatius of Antioch circa 110 AD

"Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be stedfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great."

" Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages [promised]. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long-suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God [is] toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times."

Barnabas circa 132 AD

"For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works." 25

Polycarp circa 125 AD

"But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; 'not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,' or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: 'Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.'"

Hermas circa 155 AD

"They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them."

"But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood. But I enjoin you, that you obey his commands, and you will have a cure for your former sins."

Justin Martyr circa 155 AD

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made."

Irenaeus circa 180 AD

"On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, 'Know ye not, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest is temperate in all things: now these men ida it] that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as One beating the air; but I make my body livid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway.' This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam)."

Theophilius of Antioch circa 181 AD

"But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments, and obtaining the eternal prizes of God. For He who gave the mouth for speech, and formed the ear to hear, and made the eye to see, will examine all things, and will judge righteous judgment, rendering merited awards to each. To those who by patient continuance in well-doing seek immortality, He will give life everlasting, joy, peace, rest, and abundance of good things, which neither hath eye seen, nor ear heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive. But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, and at the last everlasting fire shall possess such men. Since you said, "Show me thy God," this is my God, and I counsel you to fear Him and to trust Him."

Clement of Alexandria circa 202 AD

" 'And other sheep there are also,' saith the Lord, 'which are not of this fold '--deemed worthy of another fold and mansion, in proportion to their faith. 'But My sheep hear My voice,' understanding gnostically the commandments. And this is to be taken in a magnanimous and worthy acceptation, along with also the recompense and accompaniment of works. So that when we hear, 'Thy faith hath saved thee, we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatever shall be saved, unless also works follow. But it was to the Jews alone that He spoke this utterance, who kept the law and lived blamelessly, who wanted only faith in the Lord. No one, then, can be a believer and at the same time be licentious; but though he quit the flesh, he must put off the passions, so as to be capable of reaching his own mansion."

"[T]hus by the grace of the Saviour healing their souls, enlightening them and leading them to the attainment of the truth; and whosoever obtains this and distinguishes himself in good works shall gain the prize of everlasting life... But others rightly and adequately comprehend this, but attaching slight importance to the works which tend to salvation, do not make the requisite preparation for attaining to the objects of their hope."

Origen circa 230 AD

"[T]he apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this"

"Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in Him, and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the Epistle bearing the name of James."

Hippolytus circa 235 AD

"And in like manner, the Gentiles by faith in Christ prepare for themselves eternal life through good works."

"He, in administering the righteous judgment of the Father to all, assigns to each what is righteous according to his works....the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not...But the righteous will remember only the righteous deeds by which they reached the heavenly kingdom, in which there is neither sleep, nor pain, nor corruption"

Cyprian circa 251 AD

"For both to prophesy and to cast out devils, and to do great acts upon the earth is certainly a sublime and an admirable thing; but one does not attain the kingdom of heaven although he is found in all these things, unless he walks in the observance of the right and just way. The Lord denounces, and says, 'Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey His precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward."

"You must pray more eagerly and entreat; you must spend the day in grief; wear out nights in watchings and weepings; occupy all your time in wailful lamentations; lying stretched on the ground, you must cling close to the ashes, be surrounded with sackcloth and filth; after losing the raiment of Christ, you must be willing now to have no clothing; after the devil's meat, you must prefer fasting; be earnest in righteous works, whereby sins may be purged; frequently apply yourself to almsgiving, whereby souls are freed from death. What the adversary took from you, let Christ receive; nor ought your estate now either to be held or loved, by which you have been both deceived and conquered. Wealth must be avoided as an enemy; must be fled from as a robber; must be dreaded by its possessors as a sword and as poison. To this end only so much as remains should be of service, that by it the crime and the fault may be redeemed. Let good works be done without delay, and largely; let all your estate be laid out for the healing of your wound; let us lend of our wealth and our means to the Lord, who shall judge concerning us. Thus faith flourished in the time of the apostles; thus the first people of believers kept Christ's commands: they were prompt, they were liberal, they gave their all to be distributed by the apostles; and yet they were not redeeming sins of such a character as these." 38

"You therefore, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself of Christ gold tried by fire; that you may be pure gold, with your filth burnt out as if by fire, if you are purged by almsgiving and righteous works. Buy for yourself white raiment, that you who had been naked according to Adam, and were before frightful and unseemly, may be clothed with the white garment of Christ. And you who are a wealthy and rich matron in Christ's Church, anoint your eyes, not with the collyrium of the devil, but with Christ's eye-salve, that you may be able to attain to see God, by deserving well of God, both by good works and character."

Lactantius circa 310 AD

"For this reason He has given us this present life, that we may either lose that true and eternal life by our vices, or win it by virtue."

Biff the unclean

I love these arguments over which superpowers God has. Always ignoring the fact that there aren't any Gods.

But if you are going to declare what church fathers from before Constantine believed why go with the minority view that Constantine chose? You'd be more in tune with their teachings if you went with the Gnostic or the Arian early fathers.

Magus55

I love how you seem to think you know everything and can make factual statements like there are no gods. Quite the arrogance you have Biff.

Biff the unclean

I claim that there are Zero Gods.
You claim that there is One God.

I can produce Zero Gods.
You can produce Zero Gods too.
Which means of the two of us only you are claiming something that they can't produce. Last time I looked spunkey that's what is known as arrogance.

Now how, when you can't even produce a God to look at, are we supposed to believe that you know details about it?

winstonjen

But it's in god's NATURE to not be tested! I know that it's possible that bible writers can invent stuff like that because they know that their god will fail any test, but still! Well, since I've got nothing left, you don't want eternal torture, do you?

Biff the unclean

It's the only option when evidence is not forthcoming.
No, the only option you have when no evidence is available is not beliving

For example, disbelieving in life after death is not an option for me, but there is no conclusive evidence for life after death, so all I can do is believe in life after death without evidence.
No one said anything about "disbelieving." I said "not" believing. There is no action taken or indicated. You "don't" do something.

Since you know that there is no evidence you cannot possibly believe. You've already admitted that you aren't fooling yourself.

I've convinced myself that God and the afterlife are real, so I fully believe they're real.
I doubt that. Since you know full well that things don't exist just because you want them too you know these things don't either. Time to rent the DVD of Hanna and Her Sisters and pay attention to the Woody Allen character.