Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beth · 06-20-2003, 01:11 PM

According to this article at Beliefnet, Jesus saves us all and we get to go to heaven to be with Hitler.

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Could you describe your message--the "gospel of inclusion"--in a nutshell?

The Gospel of Inclusion is the exciting and liberating news that in the finished work of the cross, Jesus redeemed the entire world to God from the cosmic and organic sin imposed upon it by Adam, the original man. In effect, the world is already saved, they just don�t know it; and, unfortunately, most Christians don�t believe it. First Timothy 4:9-10 says, "...we have put our trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, and especially those who believe.� Jesus did not just die for Christians, He died to redeem, reconcile, and ultimately save the Cosmos.

Jesus was not a Christian, He was a Jew. God, however, is Spirit and cannot be confined exclusively to any particular religion including Christianity. He�s not Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist; yet, He is all of that if we want or need Him to be, while at the same time, none of it conclusively, because He can't be and, in fact, is not limited to a person's or culture�s perception of Him.

He loves everybody, He understands everybody, and He has a covenant with everybody�again, whether they know it or not. Every human being in the history of the planet was created in the image and likeness of God. Anything else is an impersonation. God sees Himself in everybody, in every belief system, in every icon, perhaps even the devil. The devil can't subsist on his own. He came from God, has a specific assignment, and carries it out well.

It goes on to discuss if Satan is the image of God and whether or not unbelievers get to heaven.

This is unlike any preaching I've heard before. The reaction is a little volitile. He's considered a heretic.

PaladInChrist · 06-20-2003, 01:15 PM

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He's considered a heretic.

Indeed, few people will actually be in Heaven.

emotional · 06-20-2003, 01:19 PM

While this is better than the damnable version of mainstream Christianity, which puts people in heaven or hell according to the arbitrary criterion of believing in Jesus, this is not much of justice either. It means that a wrongful life goes unpunished.

I believe Hitler went to hell. He was to get out of there sometime, but his misdeeds did not go unpunished. Conversely, virtuous people such as Robert Green Ingersoll went to the heavenly realms straight away, regardless of their belief or unbelief in Jesus.

PaladInChrist · 06-20-2003, 01:21 PM

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Originally posted by emotional
While this is better than the damnable version of mainstream Christianity, which puts people in heaven or hell according to the arbitrary criterion of believing in Jesus, this is not much of justice either. It means that a wrongful life goes unpunished.

I believe Hitler went to hell. He was to get out of there sometime, but his misdeeds did not go unpunished. Conversely, virtuous people such as Robert Green Ingersoll went to the heavenly realms straight away, regardless of their belief or unbelief in Jesus.

How do you define mainstream Christianity? It doesnt sound exactly like Catholicism, which has 1 Billion members.

Belief in Jesus is essential, but if someone doesnt know any better, they are judged by God and God alone, and their works have something to do with it.

emotional · 06-20-2003, 01:27 PM

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Originally posted by PaladInChrist
How do you define mainstream Christianity? It doesnt sound exactly like Catholicism, which has 1 Billion members.

The salvation-by-faith-alone stuff. As in here.

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Belief in Jesus is essential,

This I reject. Belief in Jesus counts for nothing. Even belief in God counts for nothing. Only acts of love and kindness have any value.

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but if someone doesnt know any better, they are judged by God and God alone, and their works have something to do with it.

Upon death, God flashes a Life Review before the soul, and it is filled with remorse or joy according to its deeds during physical life. The soul that has led a unloving, unkind life is ashamed of itself, feels unworthy to face God, and sends itself to the lower astral planes for some time (until full repentance).

PaladInChrist · 06-20-2003, 01:30 PM

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The salvation-by-faith-alone stuff. As in here.

Faith alone is crap, just like that website.

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This I reject. Belief in Jesus counts for nothing. Even belief in God counts for nothing. Only acts of love and kindness have any value.

You can't work your way into Heaven, just like only having faith, its a heresy.

You need faith and works.

emotional · 06-20-2003, 01:35 PM

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Originally posted by PaladInChrist
Faith alone is crap, just like that website.

You may think so, but the faith-only Christians have scriptures to back it up, such as Ephesians 2 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast").

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You can't work your way into Heaven, just like only having faith, its a heresy.

You need faith and works.

Atheists have as much chance of getting to heaven as theists. People who have had an NDE report that the Being of Light (God) asked them not whether they believed, but what they had done with their lives.

Spaz · 06-20-2003, 01:38 PM

Why would a god that is supposed to love all of mankind, etc. give half a shit about what you believed in? What difference does it make?

sakrilege · 06-20-2003, 04:58 PM

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Originally posted by Spaz
Why would a god that is supposed to love all of mankind, etc. give half a shit about what you believed in?

Specifically, what you believed in the last minute of your life to the exclusion of everything else.

SLD · 06-20-2003, 05:42 PM

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Originally posted by sakrilege
Specifically, what you believed in the last minute of your life to the exclusion of everything else.

A-Fucking men. Just ask Constantine who refused to actually convert until his death bed because he wanted to continue his fun ways of screwing anyone he could and killing anyone whom he disliked. Hey it's good to be the king. (well emporer actually)

I wonder how many people know that the only reason we are not a mithraic society is that Mithraism wouldn't let Constantine continue his sinful ways but Catholicism would as long as he converted before he died.

SLD

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06-20-2003, 01:19 PM	#3
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	While this is better than the damnable version of mainstream Christianity, which puts people in heaven or hell according to the arbitrary criterion of believing in Jesus, this is not much of justice either. It means that a wrongful life goes unpunished. I believe Hitler went to hell. He was to get out of there sometime, but his misdeeds did not go unpunished. Conversely, virtuous people such as Robert Green Ingersoll went to the heavenly realms straight away, regardless of their belief or unbelief in Jesus.

06-20-2003, 01:38 PM	#8
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Why would a god that is supposed to love all of mankind, etc. give half a shit about what you believed in? What difference does it make?

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