jojo-sa

whatever u like to believe is fine with me

Princess of Peace

Muslims are supposed to follow Muhammed? Good. Then change the shahada. It's absolutely silly to think that Muhammed actually said "and Muhammed is the messenger of Allah," after saying that Allah is one. He may have said "I am the messenger of Allah," but then you as believers would have to also say that you are the messengers of Allah, because that's what Muhammed did. If there are things that you will not copy out of Muhammed's life (like giving us new and updated Qur'an verses from time to time), then how are you to know what to copy from Muhammed's life, and what not to copy due to his status as the last messenger of Allah? Maybe only the last messenger of Allah can marry nine year olds and bring forth new Qur'an verses, and the rest of us have to be content with only those wives who gave consent.

It's absurd to say that you wish to copy Muhammed's example in as much detail as possible if you aren't willing to bring forth new and updated instructions from Allah, just like Muhammed did. If you are not willing to follow Muhammed's example in this, then you are merely picking and choosing what part of Muhammed's life you wish to follow.

Same goes for Jesus.

DMB

Originally posted by Jojo:
That's because you cannot actually defend the indefensible parts of your religion. Grow up and learn more about the world!

Baalthazaq

Ok we'll go with a more detailed descripion:

Mohammed(PBUH) wanted people to learn by his example, and as a result followed his own rules.

In other words what Mohammed(PBUH) does is allowed, provided of course the circumstances are the same.

The circumstances in turn must be circumstances which have a bearing.

Therefore I for example cannot make binding Islamic law because I'm not a Mullah, and cannot change TRUE Islamic law because I'm not divinely inspired. Etc.
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David:
As you may have gathered from above: We are not supposed to have wives the same ages as Mohammed(PBUH), and at the same time and so on. It merely means that whatever Mohammed(PBUH) does we are allowed to do so also (provided circumstances are the same).

Hence my question.

hinduwoman

Bal, it is not a hadith but hadiths that speak of Aishas's marriage being consumnated at nine.
It is in both Sahi Muslim and Sahi Bukhari --- (will lookup references later). Bukhari also states that her father did not want the marriage but Muhammad said, " she was lawful to me".

Baalthazaq

Ummmmmm. Ok. (I'm a little late in looking up mine too so take your time.)

(And edited to say it's Sahih, Just to help you with alta-vista searches and stuff.)

P & B
Baalthazaq
Omar Ismail.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Baalthazaq ]</p>

David Gould

You are right - I thought about it on the weekend.

However, this is how I see it:

It is logical that it be made legal because Mohammed did it - it would be illogical to have a system in which the prophet of Islam had done something that was against Islamic law.

Thus, (assuming Allah exists) if a Moslem has the same sort of visions et cetera that Mohammed did then it should be legal for them to do as Mohammed did.

Thus, it seems to me that the hole question hinges on one thing: does Allah in fact exist?

If Allah does then the law is fine; if he doesn't, then it becomes dubious.

Thinking about it, this is why I think the use of this argument against Islam is pointless - it is not an internal inconsistency and it is not illogical. If you accept that Allah exists, the law and the supposed events fit perfectly well.

hinduwoman

Found the references:
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. (according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging). They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."


Gould, I agree with you. Everything Muhammad does is justified only if Allah exists, truly communicated with Muhaamad.
But of course, whether people will accept God as the only source of morality is another matter.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]</p>