Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 04:16 PM

I just noticed Douglas posted his credentials on the credentials thread. I was wondering if he was interested in having another mini-debate. We could just do it here - except we would have to keep the topic much smaller. Last time, we debated life, the universe, and everything, when we were really just supposed to debate microevolution.

So, Douglas, if you are interested, here's a topic for you: Specifically, human evolution, and how we know we evolved from primates.

Here's the first question:

What is the non-evolutionary explanation of the evidence we see in human chromosomes of our chimp-like ancestry, and how does one test this theory?

scigirl

Douglas J. Bender · 06-13-2002, 04:23 PM

scigirl,

Now how's that for timing? You start this thread at EXACTLY the same time (to within a minute, at least) as I responded to your "Grand Goose" comparison thread. Note that we haven't "conversed" for a month or so. Pretty keen.

Anyway, I appreciate your kind offer, but I'm currently working essentially two jobs (one full time, one part time), and they both are construction related (no time on the computer). That, and I've got to keep current on a couple of other things on the Internet, when I have the time (for example, I've got to research a bit more about the myth of Mithra [or is that "the mith of Mythra"?], in order to debunk the idea that Christianity developed from some primary "god"-myth of India). Maybe some other time, Lord willing (I've got to get some of these stupid bills paid off; otherwise, there's no point in my even thinking about graduate school).

In Christ,

Douglas

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Douglas J. Bender ]

foursquareman · 06-13-2002, 04:33 PM

can i butt in? with me not knowing much, could you give me the short run down of the evidence of chimp ancestry in the human chromosone? Are they similar in certain ways?

RufusAtticus · 06-13-2002, 04:35 PM

Sure. Check out the similarity in banding patterns.

[Just for the record - the H stands for Human, and is a picture of the human chromosome #2, the C is Chimp, the G is Gorilla, and O is Orangutan. Note all the non-human primates have 2 chromosomes here, whereas we have 1. scigirl]

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
Now how's that for timing? You start this thread at EXACTLY the same time (to within a minute, at least) as I responded to your "Grand Goose" comparison thread.

Wow, that is weird. Oooh, maybe there IS a g------

just kidden!

Hey no prob, and good luck with the jobs. And finish your degree - very important!!!

But if you ever feel like "discussing" evolution, you know where to come.

scigirl

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by foursquareman:
can i butt in? with me not knowing much, could you give me the short run down of the evidence of chimp ancestry in the human chromosone? Are they similar in certain ways?

It's even worse than that. We have sequences that look like chimp telomeres (ends) in the middle of the chromosome that we believe is two fused ones.

<a href="http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html" target="_blank">http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html</a>

Chimps have 24 chromosomes in their sperm/eggs, we only have 23.

Quote:

There are two potential naturalistic explanations for the difference in chromosome numbers - either a fusion of two separate chromosomes occurred in the human line, or a fission of a chromosome occurred among the apes. The evidence favors a fusion event in the human line. One could imagine that the fusion is only an apparent artifact of the work of a designer or the work of nature (due to common ancestry). The common ancestry scenario presents two predictions. Since the chromosomes were apparently joined end to end, and the ends of chromosomes (called the telomere ) have a distinctive structure from the rest of the chromosome, there may be evidence of this structure in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the fusion apparently occurred. Also, since both of the chromosomes that hypothetically were fused had a centromere (the distinctive central part of the chromosome), we should see some evidence of two centromeres.

So, not only does evolutionary theory explain how we got 23 chromosomes from 24, it makes two testable predictions. Do the predictions come true? Yes indeed: (I cut out a bunch of this for brevity, but feel free to read it yourself - this page is great).

Quote:

The first prediction (evidence of a telomere at the fusion point) is shown to be true in reference 3 [...] When the vicinity of chromosome 2 where the fusion is expected to occur (based on comparison to chimp chromosomes 2p and 2q) is examined, we see first sequences that are characteristic of the pre-telomeric region, then a section of telomeric sequences, and then another section of pre-telomeric sequences. Furthermore, in the telomeric section, it is observed that there is a point where instead of being arranged head to tail, the telomeric repeats suddenly reverse direction - becoming (CCCTAA)3' instead of 5'(TTAGGG), and the second pre-telomeric section is also the reverse of the first telomeric section. This pattern is precisely as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of the chimpanzee (ancestor) 2p and 2q chromosomes, and in precisely the expected location.

The second prediction - remnants of the 2p and 2q centromeres is documented in reference 4. The normal centromere found on human chromosome 2 lines up with the 2p chimp chromosome, and the remnants of the 2q chromosome is found at the expected location based upon the banding pattern.
[...]
Now, the question has to be asked - if the similarities of the chromosomes are due only to common design rather than common ancestry, why are the remnants of a telomere and centromere (that should never have existed) found at exactly the positions predicted by a naturalistic fusion of the chimp ancestor chromosomes 2p and 2q?

scigirl

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]

Douglas J. Bender · 06-13-2002, 05:06 PM

scigirl,

So does this imply that the only genetic difference between humans and chimps is that "fusion point"? And that accounts for ALL observed differences between humans and chimps?

In Christ,

Douglas

hezekiah jones · 06-13-2002, 05:10 PM

Telomeres and centromeres aside, according to my personal observations, the only difference between humans and chimpanzees is often simply a matter of social construct.

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
So does this imply that the only genetic difference between humans and chimps is that "fusion point"? And that accounts for ALL observed differences between humans and chimps?

No, that's not what the article says. It's just that this particular difference is strong evidence for chimp-chromosome fusion (hence evolution did happen like we said it did).

scigirl

scigirl · 06-14-2002, 11:55 AM

Bumping this up for Douglas J Bender

scigirl

06-13-2002, 04:16 PM	#1
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	New debate with Douglas? I just noticed Douglas posted his credentials on the credentials thread. I was wondering if he was interested in having another mini-debate. We could just do it here - except we would have to keep the topic much smaller. Last time, we debated life, the universe, and everything, when we were really just supposed to debate microevolution. So, Douglas, if you are interested, here's a topic for you: Specifically, human evolution, and how we know we evolved from primates. Here's the first question: What is the non-evolutionary explanation of the evidence we see in human chromosomes of our chimp-like ancestry, and how does one test this theory? scigirl

06-13-2002, 04:35 PM	#4
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Sure. Check out the similarity in banding patterns. [Just for the record - the H stands for Human, and is a picture of the human chromosome #2, the C is Chimp, the G is Gorilla, and O is Orangutan. Note all the non-human primates have 2 chromosomes here, whereas we have 1. scigirl] [ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

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06-13-2002, 04:23 PM	#2
Douglas J. Bender Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Elkhart, Indiana (USA) Posts: 460	scigirl, Now how's that for timing? You start this thread at EXACTLY the same time (to within a minute, at least) as I responded to your "Grand Goose" comparison thread. Note that we haven't "conversed" for a month or so. Pretty keen. Anyway, I appreciate your kind offer, but I'm currently working essentially two jobs (one full time, one part time), and they both are construction related (no time on the computer). That, and I've got to keep current on a couple of other things on the Internet, when I have the time (for example, I've got to research a bit more about the myth of Mithra [or is that "the mith of Mythra"?], in order to debunk the idea that Christianity developed from some primary "god"-myth of India). Maybe some other time, Lord willing (I've got to get some of these stupid bills paid off; otherwise, there's no point in my even thinking about graduate school). In Christ, Douglas [ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Douglas J. Bender ]</p>

06-13-2002, 04:33 PM	#3
foursquareman Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 63	can i butt in? with me not knowing much, could you give me the short run down of the evidence of chimp ancestry in the human chromosone? Are they similar in certain ways?

06-13-2002, 05:06 PM	#7
Douglas J. Bender Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Elkhart, Indiana (USA) Posts: 460	scigirl, So does this imply that the only genetic difference between humans and chimps is that "fusion point"? And that accounts for ALL observed differences between humans and chimps? In Christ, Douglas

06-13-2002, 05:10 PM	#8
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Telomeres and centromeres aside, according to my personal observations, the only difference between humans and chimpanzees is often simply a matter of social construct.

06-14-2002, 11:55 AM	#10
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Bumping this up for Douglas J Bender scigirl

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