Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MarcoPolo · 09-20-2002, 10:09 AM

If anyone hasn't seen the story of the mother beating her 4 year old child, you can go to <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com</a> and see the video.

They are making the video available for public viewing in the hopes that this person can be caught. She is hiding out and her family is being uncooperative.

Anyways, I talked about this story with a christian friend of mine and his response to me was, "and you wonder why this world needs a Savior?"

I didn't start anything with him because I didn't know quite what to say to that. I've been thinking about it and want to say something like, "Well, according to you, this world already has a Savior. And since it already has one, what difference does it make to this 4 year old little girl?"

Can anyone come up with something a little better?

ImGod · 09-20-2002, 10:20 AM

He would have just told her to turn the other cheek. A policeman, now that's what was needed.

simian · 09-20-2002, 10:24 AM

"Hands that help are better than hands that pray."

Or if you wish to be viscious "Spare the rod and spoil the child."

While Christianity can be a driving force to get people to do good, it doesn't seem to be doing that in this day and age (and it can seem that instances of it doing good are very limited). I see very few Christians taking on liberal causes, in fact, what I see is things like the church in Atlanta (?), where the preacher and others would "beat the fear of God into unruly kids", "good Christians" trying to put the ability of parents to beat their kids into law, trying to put into law that victoms of rape must carry the pregnancy to term, should they become pregnant, people making excuses for religious leaders that molest children.

Forgive me for being a cynic, but humanity seems to need a salvation from Christianity at the moment....

Simain

Grumpy · 09-20-2002, 04:10 PM

We're talking about 24-year old Madelyne Gorman Toogood, right? How do we know she's not "saved" already?

I'm not saying she is or isn't. But wouldn't it be funny if she was? Not for her daughter, of course.

The Lone Ranger · 09-20-2002, 06:25 PM

As Bertrand Russell pointed out, religious belief does not make bad people into good ones. But, when it comes to inspiring good people to do evil deeds, nothing is more effective than religious conviction.

***

Madelyn Toogood clearly has mental problems of some sort, but why is her sister covering for her? Could the sister somehow believe that such brutality toward a defenseless child was in any way justifiable? She apparently witnessed the beating, yet didn't interfere. I should think that any adult in his or her right mind would have rushed to the defense of a helpless child, even if it was your own sister who was administering the beating.

-- Michael

ashibaka · 09-20-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarcoPolo:
Anyways, I talked about this story with a christian friend of mine and his response to me was, "and you wonder why this world needs a Savior?"

I looked through the story and saw the quote I pretty much expected to see:

Quote:

[An official] said Toogood could be difficult to track down because she appears to be affiliated with the Irish Travellers, a group he has investigated for 18 years. ... They are devout Roman Catholics who share biblical names, marry within the group and speak their own dialect.

Gregg · 09-21-2002, 02:09 PM

They seem to be more of a gypsy group than a religious cult, though:

Quote:

Irish Travellers (sometimes known as "itinerants" or "Tinkers") are a very small minority group in Ireland. They make up less than 1% of the population with approximately 23,000 people in the Republic and another 1,500 in the North. It is also estimated that there are about 15,000 Irish travellers in Britain and another 7,000 in the USA. Irish Travellers belong to a distinct ethnic group within Ireland. They have their own language, beliefs and social customs which have been made stronger over time due to their exclusion and marginalisation from mainstream "settled" society.

Occasionally Irish Travellers have been confused with the Roma or Gypsies in England, who despite centuries of coexistence, cultural interchange and limited intermarriage, remain a distinct people.

Until not so long ago Irish Travellers were referred to as "Tinkers". This word referred to their occupation as tinsmiths and metalworkers and was derived from the Irish word "ceard" (smith) or "tinceard" (tinsmith). This word is now generally used in a derogatory sense. Most of the Travellers' traditional crafts such as spoon-mending, tinsmithing and flower-making have gone by the way now as a result of urbanisation and the introduction of plastic and industrial technology.

Traveller musicians have included the great uilleann piper Felix Doran and the world-renowned folk musicians The Furey Brothers. The music and singing of the Irish Travellers have been in decline since urbanisation and the arrival of television. Fewer Travellers now rely on singing and making music for their livelihood as in times gone by.

There are a number of theories as to the origin of the Irish Travellers. Their secret language, Shelta, and the evidence of various historical references to them would seem to indicate that they are the remnants of an ancient class of wandering poets, joined by those who were pushed off the land during different times of social and economic upheaval such as Cromwell's campaign of slaughter, the Battle of the Boyne (1690) and the Battle of Aughrim (1691). Many of the Travellers may also be the descendants of people who were left homeless as a result of the Irish potato famines of the nineteenth century.

Linda · 09-21-2002, 04:44 PM

The beating of the child happened just a few miles from my home. The local papers say that the mother and her family members are 'devout Catholics'. The mother also has outstanding warrants, two of them, for unrelated charges in Texas. She was supposed to turn herself in to police today, according to her lawyer, a Texas attorney, but I have not heard whether she did that yet or not.

Anyway, you can tell your christian friend that this particular mother was a devotee of the 'savior'. Look where it got her daughter.

Edited for update: Madelyne Toogood turned herself in to Mishawaka Police Dept. this afternoon. Martha, her daughter, is now in protective custody with the Child Protection Services. Martha's father accompanied his wife to the police department as did the Texas attorney, 'Rocket' Rosen.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Linda ]

Abacus · 09-21-2002, 05:17 PM

She's in custody now.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/09/21/video.child.beating/index.html" target="_blank">cnn</a>

Shake · 09-23-2002, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Anyways, I talked about this story with a christian friend of mine and his response to me was, "and you wonder why this world needs a Savior?"

As the sticker at <a href="http://www.evolvefish.com" target="_blank">Evolve Fish</a> says: Lord save me from your followers!

09-20-2002, 10:09 AM	#1
MarcoPolo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 131	What kind of response is this? If anyone hasn't seen the story of the mother beating her 4 year old child, you can go to <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com</a> and see the video. They are making the video available for public viewing in the hopes that this person can be caught. She is hiding out and her family is being uncooperative. Anyways, I talked about this story with a christian friend of mine and his response to me was, "and you wonder why this world needs a Savior?" I didn't start anything with him because I didn't know quite what to say to that. I've been thinking about it and want to say something like, "Well, according to you, this world already has a Savior. And since it already has one, what difference does it make to this 4 year old little girl?" Can anyone come up with something a little better?

09-21-2002, 04:44 PM	#8
Linda Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 932	The beating of the child happened just a few miles from my home. The local papers say that the mother and her family members are 'devout Catholics'. The mother also has outstanding warrants, two of them, for unrelated charges in Texas. She was supposed to turn herself in to police today, according to her lawyer, a Texas attorney, but I have not heard whether she did that yet or not. Anyway, you can tell your christian friend that this particular mother was a devotee of the 'savior'. Look where it got her daughter. Edited for update: Madelyne Toogood turned herself in to Mishawaka Police Dept. this afternoon. Martha, her daughter, is now in protective custody with the Child Protection Services. Martha's father accompanied his wife to the police department as did the Texas attorney, 'Rocket' Rosen. [ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Linda ]</p>

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09-20-2002, 10:20 AM	#2
ImGod Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 6,264	He would have just told her to turn the other cheek. A policeman, now that's what was needed.

09-20-2002, 10:24 AM	#3
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	"Hands that help are better than hands that pray." Or if you wish to be viscious "Spare the rod and spoil the child." While Christianity can be a driving force to get people to do good, it doesn't seem to be doing that in this day and age (and it can seem that instances of it doing good are very limited). I see very few Christians taking on liberal causes, in fact, what I see is things like the church in Atlanta (?), where the preacher and others would "beat the fear of God into unruly kids", "good Christians" trying to put the ability of parents to beat their kids into law, trying to put into law that victoms of rape must carry the pregnancy to term, should they become pregnant, people making excuses for religious leaders that molest children. Forgive me for being a cynic, but humanity seems to need a salvation from Christianity at the moment.... Simain

09-20-2002, 04:10 PM	#4
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	We're talking about 24-year old Madelyne Gorman Toogood, right? How do we know she's not "saved" already? I'm not saying she is or isn't. But wouldn't it be funny if she was? Not for her daughter, of course.

09-20-2002, 06:25 PM	#5
The Lone Ranger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Eastern U.S. Posts: 1,230	As Bertrand Russell pointed out, religious belief does not make bad people into good ones. But, when it comes to inspiring good people to do evil deeds, nothing is more effective than religious conviction. *** Madelyn Toogood clearly has mental problems of some sort, but why is her sister covering for her? Could the sister somehow believe that such brutality toward a defenseless child was in any way justifiable? She apparently witnessed the beating, yet didn't interfere. I should think that any adult in his or her right mind would have rushed to the defense of a helpless child, even if it was your own sister who was administering the beating. -- Michael

09-21-2002, 05:17 PM	#9
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	She's in custody now. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/09/21/video.child.beating/index.html" target="_blank">cnn</a>

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