j ford

I'm new to this forum, and I came for good discussion, so here goes.

I have never understood religion, and I don't understand how people can be duped into believing some of the tales and beliefs entailed in such "teachings". From the time I was a child going to Sunday school, I always thought the stories were fictional. I can't ever get anyone that is religious to justify why they are, other than, because that's what "God" says I should do.

Are people so controlled by society and religious order anymore, that free thought is non existent. Why do people in religion think they need their god to be whole and strong? I'm speaking stereo typically, I know not everyone is this way, I'm just generalising. I just don't understand how some people can be so controlled into what they should think, and never take the time to formulate their own ideas.

It seems to me, that this control runs much deeper than just religion, but this is a good place to begin. There are so many different cultures, religions, beliefs... how can one believe theirs is better or truer than the others. Especially when some are much younger than others. Admittedly, I don't know enough history on religions to start spouting beginnings and creations of such beliefs, maybe some of you can shed some light. I'm just speaking more from free thought, as opposed to trained thought.

Seeing as how I'm new to this forum, I wasn't really sure where to start, I hope I can get some conversation out of this.

SecularFuture

There are damn good books on the biology of belief out there for your reading pleasure:

Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought
By Pascal Boyer

The Biology of Belief: How Our Biology Biases Our Beliefs and Perceptions
By Joseph Giovannoli
Author's Website



I'll be back later to give my personal response.

j ford

Thanks for the info on the books.

I would also like to make it clear that I'm not attacking anyones beliefs. I'm just simply curious about another point of view that I don't understand. I'm fully open to other ideas and views that others may possess.

diana

Hi, j ford. Welcome to Infidels.

"Attacking" others' beliefs is acceptable here, although most of us call this "questioning." As long as you're rational and polite about it, attack all the beliefs you wish. That's pretty much our purpose for being (it goes hand-in-hand with "promoting metaphysical naturalism, IMO).

You have an interesting OP, but it doesn't really have anything to do with discussion of the Existence of God. I think it'll get better play in Misc. Religious Discussions, so I'm moving it there.

d

Selsaral

I found Julian Jaynes 'The Origin of Conscousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind' completely fascinating. It deals directly with your question. He first describes the complex nature of our consciousness including how it works, many modern experiments etc. Then he presents his theory about how consciousness developed, particularly in modern humans (like 5k BC to present), and how religion plays into our consciousness. This book isn't mindless metaphysics, the guy knew what he was talking about. I will warn you that the book is considered odd but full of interesting ideas by many in that field. I'm a novice so I can't say anything more, other than I think you will be blown away by the book. I was overwhelmed by it.

Melkor

I can understand how he feels.... even while I was a kid, I never believed in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny... when my parents tried to tell me that some rabbit snuck into our house and hid eggs and candy all over the place I remember thinking "yyyeeaahh..... suuuuuuuuurrrrre...."

That's pretty much how I remember thinking of the stuff I heard the first time I ever set foot into a church (for a cousin's Confirmation). Some of it I thought was pretty funny, but some of it was downright creepy. I kept looking around to see if anyone else thought the whole scene was as absurd as I did, but all I saw were blank, chanting faces.

I think I must have been seven or eight. That scared the heck out of me though, the realization that all these hundreds of people (it was a big Catholic church in the town I lived in back then) were all taking this bizarre stuff very seriously, and their faces were what freaked me out the most.

I guess I was never really in any danger of becoming "religious" after that eye-opener. I'll never forget that.

j ford

I guess this is kind of a vague subject, it's addressing all kinds of topics at once I guess. Still, good conversation.

What really gets me is how no matter what evidence you state to somebody that's brainwashed by the church or other religious faction, they deny it. Hypothetically, if it said in the bible "If you drop a penny on marble, god says you won't hear a sound." Some religious fanatics would hold that true, even if you dropped a penny on marble in front of them and it went CRACK!

That's what I don't get. As an atheist, I'm not opposed to ideas, especially if physical evidence is shown. So why do many religious followers deny that same train of thought?

I understand that some of the things taught in religions are good, some treat good manners, respect, that kind of thing. Then others teach hatred and genocide of other religions, like we see in the middle east right now. Is it so unthinkable for some of those people that thousands of years ago, their religions could've been started with a simple argument amongst friends or enemies.

No matter what you say to some people, they will never believe anything other than what is told to them through scriptures that are thousands of years old. How do we even know that certain things are written literally? I read a paper that was a transcription of an Authors lecture about a book he wrote. The book was called "The Bloodlines of the Holy Grail". This guy basically takes what the bible says about instances involving Jesus Christ, and using history and explanation of customs from that era, re explains what they might mean. This was just his lecuture, I've been meaning to buy the book and read it.

What I'm getting at is, I gave it to a few friends who are religious, and they complete flew off of the deepend at the ideas written within. None of them would even allow themselves to think it through. I'm not saying that it is truth, I still don't see any real proof, but it was very interesting in it's explanations.

Are people so afraid to question what was force fed to them as children, are they afraid that if what they have based as truth and beliefs is false, they will be lost forever? My ideas of life have changed quite a bit in my life, but I've never felt like my world was coming to an end, due to some light being shed over some fictional writings. Are some people just destined to be the sheep of conformity, and the rest of us the seekers of answers? Or am I being to harsh, and some people are just looking for the easy way to get through life without having to think, and just believe everything that they see on t.v.???

Shake

In the o.p., J ford saidAnymore? People have been controlled by "society and religious order" for millenia! They probably will be for some time. PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute." This is true wrt (with respect to) religion as well.

Not everyone's as strong as those of us here at IIDB who have left the faith (or never had it to begin with). Freethought is alive and well, just not nearly as much within religion.

Asha'man

Hi J, from another Atlanta resident!

Sadly, I think the answer is yes, these people are brainwashed from childhood, and there is little chance of escape. They may be perfectly rational in all aspects of life except one: religious belief. At that point, cognitive dissonance kicks in, and rational beliefs fly out the window.

Theism is more comforting than atheism, to some extent. It promises you eternal life, perfect justice, someone to love you for all eternally. The emotional draw is extremely powerful. Add to that the push, the stick, the fear: hell. What if I’m wrong, they ask. It is so bad to believe in something that all of society seems to accept, even if there is no proof? Maybe I’d better play it safe and avoid the risk of eternal damnation. These people are playing Pascal’s Wager, and trying to play it safe. Unfortunately, as you and I both know, the only real way to win at that wager is to refuse to play the game.

j ford

This is great, I feel like I'm home. Not just because a lot of you feel the same, but I've found people who like to talk. I can never get anyone around me to have a good, deep discussion. Thanks to you all for interacting, I look forward to the information around this place.