Gurdur

ROFLMAO. Yes, not only did I do so, I noticed several mistakes.
I'll lead you through some of them.
Hypothesized, not proven. See small scale of the cited studies.
For mystical experiences not caused by microseizures, see <a href="http://www.mathom.com/Religion2/Origins_Of_Religion_Appendix_01_02.htm" target="_blank">the literature I cited here in an old article of mine</a>;

Austin, James H.
Zen and the Brain : Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness
MIT Press, Cambridge, MA, USA: 2001


Cardeña, Etze, Lynn, Steven Jay and Krippner, Stanley (editors)
Varieties of Anomalous Experience : Examining the Scientific Evidence
American Psychological Association, Washington, DC, USA: 2000

are especially relevant.

Furthermore, the author(s) of the study cited in the OP have conflated the "religious" and the "mystical" experiences - they are not the same.

Here <a href="http://www.mathom.com/Religion2/Origins_Of_Religion_04_01_What_is_the_religious_ex perience.htm" target="_blank">is a working definition of the "religious" experience</a>

Here is <a href="http://www.mathom.com/Religion2/Origins_Of_Religion_07_01.htm" target="_blank">a working definition of the "mystical" experience.</a>

The "religious" experience per se has no appreciably great effect upon brain function, and has nothing whatsoever to do at any time with micro-seizures.

Micro-seizures are only responsible for some "mystical" experiences - see Austin, 2001, as well as Cardeña et al, 2000.

You do not need genuine "mystical" experiences to be religious - most believers do without.

Precisely. Or IOW it's not the experience, it's how you interpret the experience, a very different affair.

Only in some experiences; Austin, 2001, tackled this very question quite thoroughly.

Now let's hear the evidence for your theory; and you haven't answered my questions at all.


Before you indulge in your ad-hom's again, please make a logical answer to my questions. Thank-you.

(I won't ask you to read all the literature, since that took even me a couple of months. )
_________

Edited for spelling, code, and one missing sentence.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Living Dead Chipmunk

[edit: Stooping is bad. Thou shalt not stoop.]

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Living Dead Chipmunk ]</p>

Gurdur

I take it you have no rational answer ?

Living Dead Chipmunk

[edit: Stooping is still bad. Thou shalt still not stoop]

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Living Dead Chipmunk ]</p>

Gurdur

This is relying on the scientific studies of religious belief and mystical experiences as explored in Austin, 2001 (see post, literature cited, above).

Genuine mystical experiences seem to happen to far less than 20% of all religious believers - according to all peer-reviewed scientific evidence as of now.

Next !

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Gurdur

Fully incorrect. Also fallacious as an ad hom.

You seem very emotional about this all; why ?

I've shown you the evidence that destroys your theory; I've cited the evidence that supports my criticisms.
Do you have a rational argument against my criticisms ?

scigirl

If we atheists/agnostics can't have a civil discussion about any topic, then the theists are going to WIN.

Does anyone else have constructive comments on my theories regarding the way our brain works? I'm interested to see where my theory (in my second post) breaks down.

scigirl

Edited because I in no way wish to encourage or elicit any further comments from Gurdur (and will not respond to any of the comments he made or will make) that are not directly pertaining to the science discussion.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

Gurdur

My own comments edited out here, consequent to Scigirl's edit.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Gurdur

It would help if my comments re evolution of theism etc. and criticisms of the cited articles were actually addressed, rather than being ignored.

I doubt the theists will win; they haven't as yet.

How about addressing my comments re the development of theism, and the non-identicalness of mystical and religious experiences ?

scigirl

Which comments exactly? I followed those links, and they were very long. Could you perhaps summarize a couple of the points that refute my theory (not the pubmed abstract but my theory?)

I'll post it again:

So perhaps what we are allowed to believe/feel/interpret about our world is in some ways dictated by our biology. Certainly we all agree that some people have a better sense of smell than others, which is entirely dictated by their biology. Why not religious "sense," i.e. the ability to falsely link temporal and spacial events? I don't mean any specific belief, I mean the ability to accept a specific belief. The brain gives us the ability, via the 'coincidence detecting' NMDA receptors and other quirks of our brain, to link up sequential events. Society fills in what those coincidences are - whether it's creationism or voo doo. Society and biology in this case form a positive feedback loop, "wiring" these beliefs into our brains at a young age unfortunately. It is possible to break the cycle however, since our brains are plastic and we can 'strengthen' the logical synapses and weaken the faulty ones.

Why are humans so predisposed to believe things that contradict our senses? I find it hard to accept that biology has nothing to do with it.

I can think of evolutionary reasons that we would be 'wired' to accept illogical beliefs over logical ones - blind acceptance of our family is one. It's much easier to care for your family if you (falsely) believe that they are more special and more deserving of your care than say a complete stranger. Children who blindly followed their parents orders probably got in less accidents, hence 'appeal to authority' somehow ended up getting into our brain sequence. As we progressed as a society, these types of connections were allowed to become more complex. And if you couple these types of neural circuits with our phenomenal ability to seek out patterns, you can see how a society would start, say, associating good fortune with the patterns of the moon.

I think these studies will have profound effects on how we deal with religious and paranormal beliefs.

Thank you,

scigirl