woodchuck

Dang! I'm running out of bibles to burn NOGO!

woodchuck

Ok Mark, the pink Unicorn Pimp Daddy, chillin in the LBC & the IPU with the SKy daddy and the heavenly posse and the dog-matic homies from the dogg-pound..... (did i miss anything)

Word to the Unicorn. I don't got much time right now, but I've been thinking and I'm interested to know some background- not to use against anybody, not an argument- in fact I think you'll see that we probably see eye to eye on a alot of church issues. I started typing my background but then decided I should see if you're even interseted where I'm comin from- I'm interested to know what your past experience is with christianity. I am not gonna defend the church here, I'm just seeking to understand before seeking to be understood I guess- so I can start gettin into dogmatic stuff. Anyway. Yu can e-mail me (check my profile) or just keep it on here, or- you can tell me to piss off. EEf the woodchuck is ok, he will chuck his wood no matter what.

Mark S, I think I'll try to put in a good word for you with sky daddy, see if I can't get you in so we can go chill in the big ghetto in the sky and hang with the heavenly posse. Anthing I can do to keep you outta pig hell G. You the man.

signed the woodchuck that busts caps in satans red arse.
-EEf

NOGO

Are you fizzling out on me, Woodchuck?

That's all right, you are not the first nor will you be the last believer to come on strong at first with standard believer answers and then go dry on me.

By the way if you run out of bibles to burn I just want to tell you that I have plenty.

You asked me if I read Ecclesiastes in its entirety. Perhaps if you answer my questions we can discover whether you have read your favourite book or not?

I will answer your last post soon.

JL

How is morality better, higher or fundamentally different as you imply woodchuck?

james-2-24

JD Crossan has a convincing take on the fig tree incident. It is an example of a literary device that Mark uses half a dozen times in his gospel. I can't remember the name for it, but the idea is that he uses a framing incident (in this case cursing of the fig tree) to interpret another incident (in this case the clearing of the temple), A - B - A. So in Mark Jesus curses the tree, then clears the temple, then the tree withers. The cursing of the tree provides Marks take on why Jesus cleared the temple. Mark saw it as Jesus symbolically ushering in a new religion which completely replaced Judiasm, which was now effectively withered.

Luke and Matthew did differ from Mark on the theological issue of Judaism, so its hard to say whether they reordered the events because they didn't pick up on this device, or removed it deliberatly.

woodchuck

Don't worry NOGO, I'm not fizzng out, this woodchucks far from fizzing- actually, I feel better now than I before. I just haven't had much time since the holiday - (Happy Easter everyone) I am working on my response. I guess I shouldn't joke about burning my bibles- do you actually think I'm doin that? It disturbes me that it would make you feel so good to destroy the thing in my life that makes it worth living, I'm not here to try to change anybodies minds- I just wanted somewhere people would talk about all the hard issue involved in faith and religion and stuff, and sadly I don't find that on the fluffy bunny rabbit christian pages.

My honest opinion is that so far your grounds for saying that the bible doesn't believe in an afterlife are pretty weak... you haven't really swayed me much at all. I was just trying to be nice and compliment you on your post in a friendly yet sarcastic way. Anyway, I'd rather be friends that can engage in discussion than enemies who argue because they disagree, if it ever gets that way I'll leave, I don't want to piss anyone off.

You'll be hearing from me soon. Represntin Sky Daddy

-EEf the Woodchuck

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: woodchuck ]</p>

woodchuck

You got that right NOGO. Matter of Fact, It wouldn't be far from true that I despise my religion. I think this may be one place where we see eye to eye.

I’m gonna take this opportunity to just kind of let you know my point of view- Mark S and the IPU think I’m whack to the bone, cause I’m representin’ the dogmatic homies with the sky daddy and his heavenly posse. You guys didn’t ask me this, but I thought this would be a good time to share it- this is not an argument, it is just me letting you get to know me, me being honest, and it is not preaching.

I’ll warn you, I’m gonna get a little personal here, but hey- who am I to you but some guy named woodchuck who farts for Jesus?

I started writing in on this site because I want to have a very good understanding of the problems people have with Jesus. It seems to me that so many “believers” when asked what they believe give the same old corn ball answer and slap on their wwjd bracelet and hide in there pot lucks. I’d studied allot, but as for retaining all I’d learned and have been learning- I needed to be given an opportunity to voice those things, that’s why I came here.

I’m not here on a mission from God, I’m not handin out tracts, I’m not telling anyone they’re gonna burn in pig hell. I think, at least I hope, you guys sense that I’m here for one purpose “seek first to understand before seeking to be understood.”

Back to me being a sand papery warthog Christian. I don’t claim that I’m any better a Christian than anybody else, but I would be a blind fool to not see the massive corruption in my church. I think the greatest evil there is, is the commercialized church, the “heaven’s Gates Hells Flames” dramas and other garbage scare tactics, the stupid t-shirts and bracelets, the cheese ball music, the TV marathons and King and Queen Jesus on TBN, and the BS that gets preached every Sunday across the World. (I am not insinuating that all preaching is BS)

I grew up despising the Church (and have not changed much) - I watched as my parents forced me to go to church, they’d fight and fight and finally divorced. Then every other weekend either I’d be at a psycho Pentecostal church with my Dad, or a dead as a corpse Catholic mass with Mom. I was sittin’ in the pews pickin my nose and coming to the conclusion that this whole religion thing was a big game that people made their own rules to- they used it to look good in public. It was all so fake. I will not deny this- this is true of the church, and it’s more evil then mass murder. It’s mass blindness.

I think we agree on a lot more than you realize, Mark & NOGO- I honestly hate to refer to myself as a Christian in the aspect that, with the label “Christian” comes so much crap- No doubt one or both of you (or anyone else reading) has experienced the hypocrisy of the Church and has been turned away and let down by it. We’ve all seen plenty of preachers who don’t practice, and we’ve had plenty of fire and brimstone shoved in our faces. We’ve all felt the shame that so many religious types will try to burden us with so they can win a convert and get a pat on the back.

Most of the stuff you guys say about the church I whole heartedly agree with. I apologize, but I know that an apology is pretty weak next to the pathetic mess that the “godly” have made. I’ve been quite a hypocrite at times myself.

I love the truth NOGO, and just because the Church has made God look like a fairytale doesn’t mean He isn’t the truth. Christ has come into my life and I can’t deny that. I don’t follow his rules, I don’t act out traditions, I’m not an altar boy payin’ penance, I’m a normal guy who was at the end of his rope and of all the gods this world offered- Christ came to me. I didn’t one day decide I wanted to shove a stick up my butt and quit havin fun. My definition of fun changed, because a new life came in to me. He is more real to me than the keyboard I’m touching right now- and I have to live with that now. It can be a lonely place. The church is phony, and I find so few who look at Christ as a relationship instead of a religion… I go to bible studies and find groups and groups of people who are hiding from reality in their fake Jesus bubble- yet only find a handful who actually believe what they say they do, and have the fruit in their lives to back it up. But even then, with what I now know to be true, it’s all worth it no matter how weird the church becomes.

All I have is what I’ve got. I guess I do a lot of complaining about the church being fake, and so I guess I better do my part to be real, and I hope that maybe even by a little bit I don’t come off like some factory standard believer just throwin stop watch illustrations at you and quotin john 3:16- I hope you see a guy who is being honest about his life and is in love with Christ, and even if you don’t believe in it, you can respect it because you see that it’s a good thing.

Anyway. I know that wasn’t an argument, but at least you guys have gotten to know me a little better. I love corresponding here.

I haven’t responded to your whole Amalekite and Ecclesiastes thing yet NOGO because I’m not so sure how necessary it is. You already know what scriptures I’m going to retort with that show the bible does believe in an after life, the Fall, and a Savior- but I’m sure you’ve already decided for yourself that those things don’t say that… and I’ve already decided for myself that they do. It seems to me we’ll be runnin circles. The real divider is that you deny that God had any authorship over the bible and that it was purely written by individuals, therefore you take each book and each part by itself without considering it as a whole. I believe that God is the overall author of the bible and that you can’t just take parts, you’ve got to take it all, and that it can’t be understood without Him in your life. But where will that get us? Obviously we won’t convince each other of anything. I think the things we need to address are the roots of the issues here: Where do you get your definition of justice in calling God unjust? Let’s talk about being human.

My point is, you’ll do no good telling me I’m wrong when you’ve demonstrated to me that your definition of right and wrong is unreliable (see my “mind” post), so lets cover that first- I want to know why you’re right. I want to know why you cling so tightly to your beliefs, and in turn I’ll continue to share why I do mine. We can learn a lot from each other.

And Mark S, sorry if my dogmatic-ness offends you. I heard a saying once that went something like this: An open mind should have the same purpose as an open mouth- to close down on something solid. If it remains wide open for too long it becomes like a street drain- taking in every bit of gunk that comes floating along” I’m talking a lot about rationality because it seems to be you guys’ favorite ice cream flavor, you base everything on it, yet your definition of it is so flimsy that things seem like they’re bound to come crashing down. I have just as hard a time buying your ideas that reason and truth are relative bits of brain evolution as you do buyin into the big sky daddy. So enlighten me- where do you get your faith?

I’m not going to argue tiny details until we’ve covered the foundation of those details- I’m just not convinced boys. It seems to me like you guys don’t merely disbelieve, it sounds like you reject passionately. A man can decide not to believe in big foot, but never have I found a man who would devote his life to his disbelief in Bigfoot. In fact I’ve met many who don’t believe in Bigfoot but none of them have nearly the zeal you guys do to dissect the bible and destroy it. Obviously there’s a personal matter here, something affiliated with Christianity let you down in the past in such a way that you are now out for revenge. Of this I am convinced.

Well. Keep’em comin boyz- thanks for your responses and humor… but most of all your honesty, the religious aren’t into honesty, they’re into looking godly- so it’s very refreshing. Catch y’all on the flipside

-EEf, the dogmatic woodchuck pimp thug, with very few friends.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: woodchuck ]

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: woodchuck ]</p>

britinusa

Woodchuck

Welcome to the mad, mad world of the internet infidels. Stick around, and I believe you're going to be a valued member in our little corner of cyberspace. BTW, you're not alone. There are many other xians here.
Your name isn't that strange. We have one guy (a xian, I think) who calls himself Satan Oscillates My Metallic Sonatas, or something like that.
You made one point in your last post that has been asked of us many times before: "Why do you guys bother debating something that you don't believe exists?" You used bigfoot as an example.
Well, we don't have "In bigfoot we trust" on our coins, or "one nation under bigfoot" inserted into the pledge of allegiance.
When asked THAT question, I usually give one example/reason: In 1987, George Bush (then Vice-President) stated that atheists don't deserve to be U.S. citizens [NOTE: He didn't say anything about those EVIL ones who don't believe in bigfoot}. 18 months after he said this, he was inaugurated as the 41st Prez. His son, "Dubya", that intellectual giant and current prez, probably shares his daddy's opinion.
Here's another example/reason: I don't want my kids to be taught creationism in school. I want them to learn about evolution, the most proven scientific theory of all time.
Now you talk about your personal relationship with Jesus, could you expand on this a little? Do you mean you're in love with the idea of Jesus? Or the teachings of Jesus? Or do you mean he's a buddy you share a sixpack with while watching Monday Night Football?
You believe in ID (intelligent design), and I'll admit that ID is a logical hypothesis (but one that I believe is highly unlikely) however as someone already pointed out, it requires a huge leap of faith to equate ID with none other than the god of the bible, the warrior-deity of a backward, nomadic hill people who lived and died millennia ago.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: britinusa ]</p>

Skid

Hi woodchuck – that was a great post. Definitely got me thinking about a few things...

I don’t think you are “whack” – you are obviously passionate about what you believe, articulate, and not the usual “drive-by Christian” we see around here. If you have really come here to get a better understanding of the problems some of us have with Jesus and Christianity in general, you are in the right place.

It seems that we do agree on many things – the hypocrisy of the church, money-grubbing preachers, etc. Where we differ is the “reality” of Christ.

You have found that “accepting Christ” is something that works for you, but yet you seem to have rejected many of the formalities of church. In fact, it looks to me as if you have formed the “church of woodchuck”, membership = 1.

As I said before, I have absolutely no problem with this. I respect your beliefs, and you seem to respect mine. However, I *don’t* respect your beliefs because I see that it’s a “good thing” – in fact, I would say it’s a “bad thing”, for many of the reasons outlined in Secular Elation’s original post. I respect your beliefs primarily because I strongly believe that each individual should come to his or her own conclusions about religious matters.

And this is my fundamental problem with churches and Christianity in general – it DOES NOT encourage honest questioning and investigation, in fact its very foundation is built on dogmatic assertions.

I found your history with different types of churches interesting. I can’t help but wonder if your parents were Muslim, and you were brought up somewhere else, you might be arguing passionately about Mohammed as you have been about Jesus.

My background is similar – I was brought up Christian, and went to a rather strict Lutheran elementary school. I remember my "bullshit detector" going off rather frequently in that school, and after much reading and investigation into the claims of Christianity, I finally was able to get past the early childhood indoctrination.

I cannot claim to have ever been a “true Christian” – but many others on this board had accepted Christ (as passionately as you have), and ended up rejecting those beliefs for a variety of reasons. It might be enlightening for you to start a thread to discuss these de-conversions in more depth.

And yes, we do “reject passionately”. As britinusa pointed out, we don’t have bigfoot worshippers attempting to post “In Bigfoot we Trust” or the “Bigfoot 10 Commandments” in our public schools.

C’mon woodchuck, do you really believe this? Many of us are passionate about this issue NOT because Christianity “let us down”, but because we are tired of it BEING SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS!! Way too many Christians in this country seem to think they have the absolute truth, and being armed with this truth gives them the license to condemn the rest of us.

LOL: “the woodchuck that busts caps in satans red arse”

NOGO

This is unusualy. Most believers are here either to convert us evil people or because they have some doubts. Doubts that they sometimes don't admit to.

The fig tree is not the only problem that I have with Jesus. I will make a list for you.

The church is not the thing that killed by faith in Christianity. It was the Bible. I read it from cover to cover and found that many things that Christians believe are simply untrue.

I am sorry that you are giving up so early. Perhaps truth is not your main objective after all. When I started looking for the truth I left no stone unturned even when I feared what I would find. I recommend this method.

I deny that the bible was inspired by God. That is correct. I do so because the evidence shows that the bible was not inspired by anybody but the people who wrote each book. I did not start with this as a premise. This is a conclusion.
I can show you the evidence if you want.

You are assuming that I don't take the bible as a whole. This not true. I will argue any point that you may have on any basis.

The last sentence above is an oxymoron (sorry).
You are saying that you need to believe before you can understand the bible. So how did you get to be a believer? You believed before you understood? Don't you know that the real faith is Islam and you need to believe before you understand that.

You must get advice from a preacher. You want to move the centre of discussion off the Bible because you can't answer the criticism.

So the Amalekites were massacred because they were the children of people who attacked the Israelites as they came out of Egypt 400 years earlier. Now to you this is moral because the bible says so. You want to know where I get the moral law which condems this attack. Did I get that right?

Confucious said (500 BC) do not do unto other what you don't want others to do unto you?
Sound familiar?

Are you responsible for what your father has done?
I am sure that you will say NO.
Do you need the bible to tell you this or otherwise you would think that you are?

Did you ever stop and wondered, "am I responsible for what my dad did in his life?" Then you turned to the bible and tried to find an answer to this question.

Let's start with this.
Are people responsible for what their parents did?
Who or what has told us that we are not?
Or are we?

Over to you.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>