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Old 02-26-2003, 12:25 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vinnie
You have a faulty assumption here.
It certainly wouldn't be my first.
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Originally posted by Vinnie
I have brief thoughts up on the infancy narrative:
http://www.acfaith.com/infancy.html
Thanks for the link. I'll get back to you after reading it.
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Old 02-26-2003, 12:26 PM   #52
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Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
How do you define "Israelites" and to when would you date their emergence?
No desire to get into that long offshoot, sorry.

Go ahead and set up your strawman to knock down...
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Old 02-26-2003, 12:33 PM   #53
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Vinnie, you wrote:
Quote:
Qualitative inspiration is consistent with the Bible’s pastoral role in the church and its special ability to help transform the lives of sinners and make them saints. It is also consistent with the clear errors and finite statements found within the Christian canon.
It is also fully consistent with the Bible as myth. Sorry, but I was underwhelmed.
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Old 02-26-2003, 12:41 PM   #54
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Originally posted by Haran
No desire to get into that long offshoot, sorry. Go ahead and set up your strawman to knock down...
Actually, Haran, I had no intention of doing anything of the kind. I thought that my question was reasonable given your assertion:
  • However, if he meant that the Israelites started out as polytheists, then I'd heartily disagree.
It seems that how you define Israelites and when you think they "started out" is of some relevance to your stance.

I'm sorry that you are feeling less hearty.
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Old 02-26-2003, 12:53 PM   #55
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Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Vinnie, you wrote:It is also fully consistent with the Bible as myth. Sorry, but I was underwhelmed.
Unfortunately, God can inspire didactic historical fiction or strict biography. You just assume with a fact-literal western view of history that the Bible must be strict history. Note that I did not say there is no history in the bible or that much of it is not historical. I am challenging your assumption which you have not substantiated at this point. Feel free to point out the positive evidence in favor of your assumption.

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Old 02-26-2003, 01:14 PM   #56
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Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
[B]Actually, Haran, I had no intention of doing anything of the kind. I thought that my question was reasonable given your assertion:
  • However, if he meant that the Israelites started out as polytheists, then I'd heartily disagree.
Sorry, jumped the gun then. I've been on these hyper-skeptical boards too long.

Quote:

It seems that how you define Israelites and when you think they "started out" is of some relevance to your stance. I'm sorry that you are feeling less hearty.
I define Israelites as the Bible defines them. Therefore, I heartily disagree that they were originally polytheistic. I do not wish to heartily argue the various views of scholars on the issue because it would take more time than I care to spend.
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Old 02-26-2003, 01:16 PM   #57
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Originally posted by Vinnie
Feel free to point out the positive evidence in favor of your assumption.
I'm sorry, Vinnie, but to what assumption are you referring?
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Old 02-26-2003, 01:20 PM   #58
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Originally posted by Haran
I define Israelites as the Bible defines them. Therefore, I heartily disagree that they were originally polytheistic. I do not wish to heartily argue the various views of scholars on the issue because it would take more time than I care to spend.
I suspect that they were henotheists. I agree, however, that the origins of the Israelites is the topic for another thread and another time. Take care.
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Old 02-26-2003, 06:16 PM   #59
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Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
I'm sorry, Vinnie, but to what assumption are you referring?
That inspiration = strictly accurate historical texts.

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Old 02-26-2003, 06:23 PM   #60
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Hi Haran,
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Originally posted by Haran
Considering the Bible itself states that the Israelites fell to the polytheism around them often, is there a point?
The point is that certain gods were "acceptable" and others were not. Eventually, these were subsumed and taken to mean the same thing. Secondly, they were henotheists: believing the existence of many gods, but worshipping just one (although the evidence is that they incorporated many of the gods.

The clearest example of henotheism is 2 Kings 3:26-27 (again, a work of the Deuteronomist, perhaps drawing from earlier sources):

When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. Then he took his firstborn son who was to succeed him, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And great wrath came upon Israel; and they withdrew from him and returned to their own land.

Other points to consider is that early Israelite names were not associated with YHWH, barring Joshua and possibly Jochebed--both closely related to Moses who was the only witness to YHWH revealing his "name" at the burning bush. Egyptologists also indicate that the God of Midian (where Moses was exiled) is referred to as Shasu: Yhw3. Other early names, especially Gideon (Jerubbaal) and Saul's household (Mephibaal and Ishbaal - '-baal' was altered to '-bosheth') associate themselves with Baal. These folk heros were probably coopted by later Yahwists.

Obviously, this is circumstancial, but there is plenty of it, and allowing for heavy redaction, we can probably guess that these practices were common, and accepted (particularly Gideon/Jerubbaal--the myth in Judges 6 is a rather haphazard etiological explanation of why Gideon was also known as "Let Baal contend")
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The names that you mention have meaning in Hebrew. That meaning was also what the ancient Israelites were adopting in speaking of their one God.
Unless you actually look at some of the meanings of these names.

El Olam - God the Everlasting One
El Bethel - God of Bethel
El Ro'i - God of Vision
El Shaddai - God of the Mountains

One god? The first three, incidentally, are unique to Genesis. Later redactions are not so careless.
Quote:
Elohim is not always plural (this can be found in Hebrew grammars written by those other than Christians as well). In fact, it is quite often singular and references one God. In the very opening of the Bible, the Hebrew reads "God created" ("created" being 3rd person singular).

As an aside, not all scholars believe that the Documentary Hypothesis has merit. It can be taken to absurd and complex levels, just like Q. What ever happened to Ocham's Razor?
So you want to make these assertions when you also write:
Quote:
No desire to get into that long offshoot, sorry. Go ahead and set up your strawman to knock down...
Oh, but the Documentary Hypothesis is a much better explanation for incorporating all the facts. Anything more reductionist has serious methodological problems.

Joel
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